The American Language
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/the-year-american-speech-became-art/485201/

    And this also had an effect on the language of worship in the USA. (Hint: note the role of technology. It reminds me of technological innovations in other media are often accompanied by a shockingly rapid "perfection" of new technique - for example, oil painting in the Low Countries in the 15th century - that creates a new canonical measuring stick, as it were.)
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  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    Erik Routley described the modality of this new "language of worship" as the "facticious intimacy of the microphone." I submit that this technology and the resulting modal shift is the crux of the conflict between "traditional" and "contemporary" worship patterns, although the former exist in pure form in rare acoustical and cultic contexts.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    Btw, here's the Elvis of the Roaring Twenties:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JV3mLUFODs

  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    The book mentioned in the article, "The American Language", is on archive.org here.

    One of my best finds in the college library's free-giveaways cart was a 4th edition of this, plus two supplements: I always find it fascinating to see laid out in writing such linguistic stuffs that otherwise one doesn't usually bother to try to articulate.


  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    I have it - it's very much worth having. It forms a great bookend to Fowler's [Modern English Usage], which was my favorite usage bible from college onward (though Mencken's is far better as a bookend because it is so much larger than Fowler's.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    We almost need a British/American dictionary to tell what each other means. I have a friend in Scotland who refers to items under the bonnet of her car and puts luggage in the boot. As an exercise junkie, I follow good advice from a fitness guru in Northern Ireland. He did some excellent videos on expanded use of resistance bands using a brush staff. I realized he meant a broom handle after I watched the videos. Let confusion reign gloriously - LOL.

    It isn't just a problem with English. A friend from Madrid informs me that no one in North or South America speaks good Spanish.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    Your madrileño friend is quite mistaken, at least regarding South America, though I am not surprised by that reported observation. Without delving into the identity of castellano and español, there are definitely people in South America, who, while they don't use all the pronunciation features common in central Spain (nor does everyone in Spain, for that matter), speak an elegant and lucid Spanish. (I should perhaps note an observation by a former German colleague of mine that what Americans often fear from Parisians about French is more aptly applied to Castilians about Spanish, and I myself experienced cold-rude treatment in Castile for my own very clean and fluent Spanish - I studied Spanish for 9 straight years from 4th grade on (6 of those years from native speakers), was dreaming in it by the time I reached high school). I couldn't stand typical Argentine Spanish or what might be called "Island" Spanish. But I have fond memories of the lilting accents of a former colleague of mine from Bolivia.)
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I think knocking the speech of others is widespread. I worked with a Cuban engineer who maintained the Mexicans speak horrible Spanish. When I took Spanish in college, the professor had learned the language in Madrid. She said Castilian Spanish is like British English. They are the standards against which the languages are measured, but are not the most widely spoken numerically. Evidently, there is the "King's English" and also the "King's Spanish."
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    There is a Real Academia Española, as there is an Académie Française.

    There is no cognate English Academy - because that's how English rolls (and why it's so flexible as a common second language). "British English" itself covers a galaxy of dialects, and HMTQ Herself doesn't quite speak Received Pronunciation - the throne for the latter has been fairly eroded over the past two generations, anyway. (HMTQ does appear to love to speak French to the President of France with just the perfect deliberate English inflection - just to annoy the French, of course, with perfect grace.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Yeah, lots of folks enjoy annoying the French. They are like your batty old aunt who drives you to desperation, but you still have to love them. LOL.
  • ...need a British/American dictionary...

    Indeed! A linguist (whose name I cannot now recall) announced several years ago that by the end of this century English and American will be two distinct languages.

    Too, I like Liam's observations. Isolated or colonial enclaves often preserve a form of any given language that was at some point in time the 'received' pronunciation and usage. To wit the English of the American 'back woods', such as the Alleghenies and so forth. I've heard, also, that the speech habits of the American south, down upon which some of us look, are said to preserve what was once educated speech in England. (I have trouble believing this.) The German that is still spoken amongst Lutherans (and, I would suppose, German Catholics) in large parts of Texas (particularly 'the hill country') is hardly intelligible to Germans who visit these parts. When I served the Lutherans for many years I had great trouble teaching the choir how to sing and pronounce German according to current German speech. They would correct me unfailingly with their provincial Texas-German; further, when persons from Germany would visit this historic church they would tell me that they couldn't understand 'these people's' German'. And, I've heard the same sort of thing said by French persons who visit Quebec.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    American English does preserve words/usages that were more common in the British Isles before Independence. ("Loan" as a verb comes to mind, if offhand memory serves.) English pronunciation shifted after Independence (not quite as much as in the early Modern period). And in both countries you have the phenomenon of language becoming more ruddered by written prescriptive practice (cheap dictionaries, the penny press and the spread of grammar schools over a greater portion of the population) than oral tradition, and Independence occurred in the early part of this phase of language development. (Now we are returning to the more usual historical pattern of orality being dominant in the evolution of usage and pronunciation. An excellent example of this is the revival of the singular "they" - the prohibition of which was of relatively recent vintage of the logical lexicographer and schoolmarm sort - and while the prohibition is not archaic, it can no longer claim exclusive right to being standard English in the USA.)

    Btw, Spain is not the only Spanish-speaking nation with a national language academy - many of its former colonies have cognates as well. The capital region of Colombia is particularly proud of the purity of its Spanish usage, though it's not identical to Castilian Spanish usage. Knowing some people whose families came from the professional classes there, I can understand their pride in that.
  • About the Academie Francais and the Real Academia Espanol, and others which Liam mentions, there are some of us who really do wish that we had a Royal English Academy. My most detested of linguists, grammarians, and chic English teachers (and their preposterous followers) are those who constantly and aggressively justify any and all linguistic horrors by the assertion that 'language is living and constantly changing' and on and on ad infinitum. Of course it is. We all know that. How could we not. But that doesn't excuse a preference for patently illiterate and ignorant usage. Just because Bach can be found to have indulged now and then in parallel or direct fifths is not license for every sophomore composition student, or sophomoric would-be composer genius to use them in feigned sagacity. The same goes for literate language usage. There are people who put ketchup on their steaks - and those for whom it would be unthinkable so to do.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    by the end of this century English and American will be two distinct languages.

    That seems highly unlikely, since mass communication tends to make languages more similar rather than more different. TV made everyone in the US talk the same way. Social media seems likely to make everyone in the world talk (or, maybe, text) the same way.

    the Academie Francais and the Real Academia Espanol, and others which Liam mentions, there are some of us who really do wish that we had a Royal English Academy.


    I hate to disagree with MJO on language matters, but I could never desire that our language was ruled over by a bunch of out-of-touch, green-jacketed ninnies with swords. While there are certainly some who abuse the privilege, English's flexibility is its greatest strength. And if any one's abuse of that flexibility offends me, I am not at all obliged to listen to it. (cf. HIP HOP).

    (Besides: How much does the average French- or Spanish-speaker know or care about the pronouncements of their Guardians of Oldspeak? Is there an enforcement mechanism? Do urban youth have to do community service when they get caught with antecedent-disagreeable pronouns? Do leftist professors get fined when they kidnap perfectly good words and torture them into serving their godless ideology?)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986

    I hate to disagree with MJO on language matters...


    Now Adam, write on the board 100 times, "I will repent of such heresy."

    I my southeastern U.S. region, some older usage is still present. I suppose most of it would come from the original Scots-Irish settlers in the 17th and 18th centuries. I have heard some older folks mention fence postes as plural and refer to the dead as un-living. There are words and phrases in use that are fairly ancient. Linguists have a field day studying such usages and books and dissertations have been written on "mountain speech."
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  • Now, now, Adam. Your blanket castigation of the august members of the Academie Francais as 'out-of-touch', and as 'ninnies' is highly subjective and indefensible, not to mention disrespectful of scholarship, and, perhaps, even, an ad hominem slurring of the cultural guardianship of a learned society. It is, also, unworthy of you. I do understand that there are those who would so paint these ladies and gentlemen. However, they are self-evidently biased towards a chaos of illiterate usage and utterly irrational, if not comedic, characterisations of those who have the brazen cheek to differ with them. Actually, there is some depth to your proposals. However, if I had to guage my usage according to one of these 'ninnies' or to one of our ever-so-cute-and-chic champions of ungoverned and untutored linguistic mayhem, I should choose, with absolute jocundity, the former. It is the latter, to a man and woman, who are ninnies. Still, this in no way begets any diminution of respect for you on my part; only the observation that your normal sagacity would seem to be on holiday. Perhaps you were distracted by some uncouthity shoveled into the atmosphere by a professor who was illiterate. (Many are, you know!)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Well, here's a more-to-the-point reason I would object to any proposals for an American version of such august guardianship:

    How long, in the current environment, would it be before political pressure perverted legitimate preservation of the language and forced into (for example) ridiculous "inclusive" pronoun use for our gender-confused brethren and sistren?

    There are some who wish we had a national Catholic hymnal, but the savvy among know very well what such a hymnal would look like in reality. Similarly... can you imagine what damage an official "English as she is spoke" committee could do?

    Especially if they have swords!
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    I offer a firm "no" to the silly idea of an English Academy. The very idea is . . . French, not English. (As in the old joke about the French academician saying: Zat may werk in practisse, but noht een theeoree.)

    The best rule of usage in English is neither purely prescriptive nor purely descriptive. It is: how well will your audience understand you, and how likely are you to leave a number of its members confused by your usage?

    It's about *effective* communication. Style - or the lack thereof - can improve or detract from effective communication.

    It's not about honoring your former teachers and demonstrating how well you conform to the rules they taught you, and the effort you put into your own education. (There is a part of prescriptivism that is about that, just as there is a part of descriptivism that is about avoiding having to ever say someone is wrong.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    It's about *effective* communication. Style - or the lack thereof - can improve or detract from effective communication.


    There's also a matter of meta-communication: What does your style communicate about your class, education, intelligence, creativity, culture, and so forth?

    This is important in liturgical language. There might be an infinite number of ways of communicating the simple idea that GOD IS MAGNIFICENT, MIGHTY, AMAZING, AND WONDERFUL (etc.). The song "Our God is an Awesome God," clearly communicates that idea. AND YET....
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    Adam

    Of course. And not only as the communicator imagines it will be received....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    How long, in the current environment, would it be before political pressure perverted legitimate preservation of the language and forced into (for example) ridiculous "inclusive" pronoun use for our gender-confused brethren and sistren?


    Sistren? I love it! LOL.

    Gender confusion I don't understand. I was quite clear about being a boy very early in my life, and early on realized that girls were different. I don't understand the problem.

    Maybe it is like calling an "ordained" Episcopal woman a priest - not, and never will be! Not caring a whit what the brethren and sistren of good taste ordain, the word "priest" in English is a male term, not female.

    I worked for a newspaper when in college that had a male reporter who decided after years of wife and kids, that he was really a female. He tried to dress the part and looked like the proverbial Herman Munster in a dress - ugly, beyond belief. The whole world has gone nuts, I think.
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  • I would suggest, Liam, that you are inalienably entitled to oppose an English Academy, but that to label the idea as 'silly' is not exactly respectful of what is not an inherently silly idea, nor of your esteemed colleagues who might think it a marvelous proposal. Actually, I cannot imagine that we would ever have such an academy, in Britain or the US, but I do think that our culture is much poorer in being one in which such an academy is not only unthinkable, but scorned.

    And Charles -
    You are quite right about gender and language. I often wonder what misery feminists must be suffering when their languages retain masculine and feminine nouns and such.
    As for women (and churches who 'ordain' them) thinking that they are priests, the obvious problem that they have in honestly calling them priestesses is that they wish to abolish gender as a signifier of character, personhood, or occupation. This is, of course a polite fiction in a society which, compared to the rest of the world, is an existential fairyland. The feminists are ingeniously inconsistent with their assumption of masculine signifers. Priests they wish to be, not priestesses (which are prolific in pagandom but utterly foreign to the Judaeo-Christian witness), cantors they likewise wish to be called - not cantrix, and ministers and choirmasters - not mistresses, and on and on. But, they have a glaring preference for signifers such as gladiatrix, mediatrix, and others which convey a fearsome power that is unique to the feministic mind. Also, they have yet to call duchesses dukes, or countesses counts, or princesses princes, etc. Here, too, because of the unique status involved they feel no need to erase but to emphasise their gender. Where they wish to assume male identities which are perceptibly distinct from female ones, they will always adopt the male signifier and erase gender differences. It is an established 'scientific' fact that male and female differ in many ways other than their respective genitalia, but it is in the feminist interest to pretend that, but for 'gender', we are all alike. It is significant that there are no males who style themselves actresses, or waitresses, or such. But actresses routinely would have us believe that they are actors. It is astonishing that we live in a society so inured to the irrational and unreal that people don't break into laughter at such usages.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    "the word "priest" in English is a male term"

    Not any more (as with "actor" and "waiter" and many other words - that usage boat sailed away a while a go). You are free to stick to that usage, of course, because for now it's also not archaic (both usages co-exist). English is flexible that way.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Not any more. You are free to stick to that usage, of course. English is flexible that way.


    If you enable political correctness, don't complain when you eventually suffer because of it.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    Not every language change is political correctness. The reason this type of change happened is that the NEED for a distinction between the word became marginal, and usage simplified. It's more prosaic.
  • No, Liam! Not the NEED, but the desire on the part of feminists. What furthers the feminist's interest is 'gender equality', which doesn't exist, has never existed, nor will ever exist. In our time equality is what females say is equal, and many are the ways in which they are catered to which makes them more than equal. There are many ways in which feminists have no desire to be 'equal'. You will find them wearing brass and gold braid and being saluted to in the Pentagon, but you won't find them in the trenches. And this is mirrored in many other aspects of our incredibly artificial society.
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,371
    Residents of Tangier Island in Virginia speak a dialect of English which is badically Jacobean, CharlesW.
  • My most detested of linguists, grammarians, and chic English teachers (and their preposterous followers) are those who constantly and aggressively justify any and all linguistic horrors by the assertion that 'language is living and constantly changing' and on and on ad infinitum. Of course it is. We all know that. How could we not. But that doesn't excuse a preference for patent illiterate and ignorant usage


    Lucid. Thank you.
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  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 339
    a preference for patent illiterate and ignorant usage


    I believe that should be "patently," since it is an adverb modifying the adjectives "illiterate" and "ignorant."
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "the word "priest" in English is a male term"


    The argument for or against a single-sex priesthood should be predicated on theology, which is grounded in unalterable truth, and not grammar, which is a modifiable human invention.

    Gender confusion I don't understand. I was quite clear about being a boy very early in my life, and early on realized that girls were different. I don't understand the problem.


    While I imagine you and I are of similar opinions about what you term "gender confusion," the fact that you do not, or cannot, understand it is hardly relevant. You probably do not also understand what it is like to grow up a poor, black woman. I do not understand why an improperly voiced organ sounds bad. To make your own experience the metric for truth is to participate in precisely the error being committed by the gender-confused population.
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  • Thank you, Deacon Fritz! 'Patently' is, indeed, what I meant.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Residents of Tangier Island in Virginia speak a dialect of English which is badically Jacobean, CharlesW.


    And which sounds completely insane amazing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIZgw09CG9E

    Which sounds a lot like...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYiYd9RcK5M

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-rejaoP7U
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  • ...should be predicated on theology...

    And, indeed, it is! John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis I, have all made clear, and it should be plain as day to any rational person who knows the Judaeo-Christian heritage, the pellucid reasons that priesthood is limited to priests (which, inherently, are men), and that priestesses (even those who insistently style themselves priests) are not a class which the Church has authority to ordain, which are constitutionally and congenitally incapable of priesthood, which is an inherently fatherly vocation and role. As often as the Church enumerates its 'theological' reasons, the immediate, blind, and thoughtless rejoinder that can be counted on is 'but there are no theological reasons...', This will be the yet-again answer to the very theological reasons that have just been laid out. These people are deaf. Catholic priesthood is not just another male dominion to be assumed into the feminist quest for power and status. A 'single-sex' priesthood, Adam, is the only kind there is. That such a modifier could even be thought of reveals the absolute intellectual and theological confusion of our age. Jacques Maritain, writing in the early XXth century, was dealing with what he termed the 'immense intellectual disorder of the last century'. Contrasted with our own age, Maritain was engaged in child's play. Beware that tolerance is not confused with nihilistic stupor and an atrophied intellect.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    MJO

    You will find women in the trenches. And probably registering for Selective Service in the not too distant future. (You should probably avoid getting into a fight with a female Israeli soldier.)

    There are language changes that feminist language prescriptivists would like to change that have not happened. The ones that happened occurred not so much because of feminists but because word differentiations that arose because of unusualness became marginal when the difference became more typical than unusual. Why remember waiter AND waitress when one word will suffice? Ditto actor and actress. It's not like we have different words for female and male doctors, lawyers, dentists, architects, organists, composers, engineers, teachers, et cet.

    When English complexifies in one hand, it tends to simplify in the other. The tidal ebb and flow is constant.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,119
    Anyway, to gently steer this conversation back to include my starting off point: the language of worship. By this I don't mean, for example, the gender inclusive language wars, nor do I mean the Prayer Book (Thee vs You) wars, though both of those wars arose in part from this larger shift - they are, however, relatively narrow terrain compared to the terrain of the larger shift.

    What I think is more fundamental and pervasive - and insidious because it's hardly noticed - is the shift to conversational tone of voice (enabled by the microphone, and now expected because of our habituation to it for virtually all now-living memory in the First World - over 80 years). To me this is even more fundamental than the embrace of American's less formal usage.

  • ...why remember waiter AND waitress when one word...

    It has nothing to do with one word! It has to do with feminism and gender studies, which means that men adapt to what the female gender is comfortable with, and not the other way around. Why not call duchesses dukes, or empresses emperors, or ladies lords, or mediatrixes mediators - why, why not call women men, and males females... after all why have two words when one will do. Your rationale in this matter is disturbing.

    As for your observation about the pervasive shift of vocal tone due to the microphone (and other related influences), I agree wholeheartedly with you. Another example of the shattering of civilized manners of speech and relationships by the paraphernalia of this overly touted age in which we live.
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,371
    Those words are like French, which doesn’t change the ending for words of historically male occupations, but you say (as I learned it...) something like “une femme médecin.”

    As an aside, Israeli soldiers are tough, but the American feminists totally distorted the combat assignments of Israeli, Australian, and European female soliders; ours is now the most expansive assignment... No one else puts them in frontline military occupational specialities (infantry, armor, etc.), especially not in mixed–sex platoons.


    Now, I also agree with Liam wholeheartedly on microphones.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    The argument for or against a single-sex priesthood should be predicated on theology, which is grounded in unalterable truth,


    I believe the Church has already dealt with and answered that issue.

    Agreed on the microphones.

    To make your own experience the metric for truth is to participate in precisely the error being committed by the gender-confused population.


    It's a danged good starting point. What Jackson is getting at, is that no one says either sex is superior to the other. In reality, no male alive is the equal of the Mother of God. The sexes were designed to complement each other, not battle over supposed ideas of superiority and inferiority. All this was never about equality, but feminists gaining political power.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,479
    no one says either sex is superior to the other
    Oh but they do, and have done for millenia. And the ludricous denial of the complementarity of the sexes is a reaction to that. However for us
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
  • ,,,no one says either sex is superior to the other...

    Few men would be so brave as to make such an assertion nowadays.
    Women?? That is another matter. Numerous times have I heard feminist types assert the superiority of women to men, and do so in all seriousness and unchallenged contempt. This is, I think, endemic in our schools and institutions of higher learning.
    The most lamentable of creatures are those numerous men who are in the feminist camp.
    Could anyone be so cloistered as not to know that our legal system is weighted enormously, preposterously, to women's advantage in family matters and just about any other matters, not to mention the legalistic denials of fathers' rights over their children, be they born or unborn.
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    Mr. Osborn, may I humbly suggest that you are hanging out with the wrong feminists?
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  • Mr. JL - I humbly aver that I don't 'hang out' with any feminists at all.

    (I hasten to add that I do recognise that your suggestion is made in all sincerity and good faith.)
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    It is. And I'm Ms. JL. :)
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  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    But actresses routinely would have us believe that they are actors.


    I find this very funny because these same actresses never complain when they receive the 'best Actress award'.

    I have yet to hear Waitresses described as being Waiters, theses terms are still distinct here in England. Fireman, signalman, engine man, etc. are also still in common use, even though the ignorant try to claim that man and male are equivalent terms.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    The manipulation of language to obtain political advantage is certainly nothing new. It is practiced by politicians, races, and people in religions who really should know better.

    I agree with Jackson that the church is under attack nearly everywhere. The dissenters in the church stay and try to undermine it. Those who can't abide church teachings should leave. At least that would be honest. I have to admire the early Protestants who couldn't agree with the doctrines of the church. They had the intellectual honesty to leave. Not so with current "dissenters," who are anything but honest.

    I would also add that, like the Byzantines who prided themselves on their relations with the Turks, today's Christians are headed for similar troubles. Those who chuckle at Christianity and think themselves enlightened Christians are going to be greatly surprised when they one day wake up and find themselves surrounded by Muslims, their laws, and all else undesirable that religion contains. Sleepers wake...
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  • would it be [long] before political pressure perverted legitimate preservation of the language and forced into (for example) ridiculous "inclusive" pronoun use for our gender-confused brethren and sistren?


    No, Adam, it wouldn't. That day is already here. Marriage licenses already list partner 1 and partner 2 in some places. Birth certificates also list Parent 1, Parent 2 and [in some places] Parent 3. "They" is a ubiquitous pronoun, for singular and plural without differentiation. GIA, OCP, WLP and others have, for decades, accepted only "inclusive language" texts.

    It didn't take an Academy to do it.

    An Academy might have had a breaking effect, as it has in France.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Thinking about Shakespeare, have there been any recordings of Elizabethan choral music in O.P.? It would certainly give a different flavour to the music than the standard choral R.P. of Oxbridge choirs.
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,371
    Someone posted a Byrd “Civitas Dei” in O.P on the forum at one point. It was lovely.

    Also, I watched the Roots remake. The accents were generally wrong...
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,822
    the word "priest" in English is a male term

    Curiously, we've been told that "for us men and our salvation" employs an inclusive term.

    And cantrix isn't even English.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Let's blame the Episcopalians for starting all the nonsense. If they had paid consultants to devise ways to destroy their church, the experts couldn't have done a better job than they themselves have done.

    I still call the Episcopalian form, "priestesses." Their priests and priestesses don't have valid orders to begin with. They are offended? Too bad. Down with political correctness. We are, after all, entering the age of Trump. ;-)