Vocation song
  • daniel
    Posts: 75
    Anybody know a song (in English) about vocations? Thanks.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    For what purpose?
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 431
    And vocation in what sense - priest / religious, or the baptismal calling which every Christian has?
  • There’s a wonderful hymn entitled “How Clear Is Our Vocation, Lord.” The text was written by Fred Pratt Green, and it is usually paired with C. Hubert H. Parry’s great tune, REPTON.

    The text is copyright by Hope Publishing Company. It can be viewed here:
    http://www.hopepublishing.com/html/main.isx?sitesec=40.2.1.0&hymnID=3282

    (Note that there is a misprint in the second line of the final stanza: the word “along” should be “alone.”)

    We were hoping to include this hymn in Worship IV, but ran out of room. However, the hymn does appear in the 2006 hymnal, Evangelical Lutheran Worship, at #580.
  • Red Flag warning: If it appears in Evangelical Lutheran Worship, does Fred Pratt Green mean the same thing by vocation as the Catholic Church does?

  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    Red Flag warning: If it appears in Evangelical Lutheran Worship, does Fred Pratt Green mean the same thing by vocation as the Catholic Church does?


    Double-whammy: F. Pratt Green was a Methodist minister. Of course, the Vatican celebrated the hymnody of Charles Wesley during the Year of St. Paul a few years back. Maybe we should begin with the assumption that one of the great hymn writers of the 20th Century was capable of writing a non-heretical hymn, or that there are senses in which Christian denominations might agree on a notion of Christian vocation or ministry, even if there might be ontological disagreement on the nature of priesthood.

    Fr. Chepponis, are you a heretic, or not? That seems to be the question behind the red flag.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Unlike other similar threads about topical hymnody, the OP didn't specify a desire for good songs, so...

    "Will you come and Follow Me..." (The Summons) by John Bell
    "Go Make a Difference" by Steve Angrisano
    "Lord, you give the great commission" by Jeffery W. Rowthorn
    "What do you want of me, Lord?" (Servant Song) by Donna Marie McGargill


    I actually really like one of these. And I hate one. And two others I think are just okay. Any guesses which is which?
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697

    I've always liked this.


    I haven't thought about this piece of music for probably 15 years, but hearing it this way is very odd - despite it being in the old blue G&P, we always used the organ to accompany it. Not hearing a chorus reed added at the chorus makes it sound odd and foreign to me.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 432
    A couple of other good ones I can think of: "Go, Make of All Disciples," "Lord, Whose Love in Humble Service," "Blessed Be God, Who Chose You in Christ" (you're welcome, Fr. Chepponis ;)), a setting of "Ubi caritas"
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    The text of CWMITF is pretty directly out of John chapter 4. Which is one of many reasons why I prefer it to LYGTGC.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    I haven't thought about this piece of music for probably 15 years, but hearing it this way is very odd - despite it being in the old blue G&P, we always used the organ to accompany it. Not hearing a chorus reed added at the chorus makes it sound odd and foreign to me.


    ditto. The melody in the video is slightly different than how I remember it, but I haven't seen it since replacing G&P. This is more like it...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrjTzmfKc_c

    I wonder if there will be any Saint Louis Jesuit music revived (revisited) at the Colloquium this year?
  • Advocatus,

    I neither claimed nor implied that Fr. Chepponis is a heretic. Please don't put words into my mouth. Rather, I claimed that the choice of Fred Pratt Green's text, published as appropriate in the music resource of a heretical group, should be looked at with great care before adoption within the Catholic fold took place. Once in a while, heretics adopt Catholic texts but try to mean heretical things by them. Green, on the other hand, is (was?) a heretic, and so -- while I admit that it's possible that he doesn't insert identifiable heresy in his text -- this fact by itself should lead us to be cautious.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,956
    I can't believe I have made it all these years without hearing the Schutte piece. However, you folks have destroyed my innocence. LOL.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    I guess my process has been this.

    1. 25 years ago, hear the Schutte piece, think it is pretty good regarding vocations.

    2. File it away in longterm memory.

    3. Never hear another to replace it.

    So when the "vocation song" question is asked, I open that filebox in my longterm memory, and there it is.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    You can tell that video is going to be good because it begins with PAPYRUS FONTED TEXT.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    the song is cheesy
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    No, not cheese. Wheat.
  • EMH
    Posts: 47
    Only the finest wheat.

    The Benedictine nuns of Ephesus sang "O Queen of Priests and Mother." I heard a church choir sang it at a priest's first mass a few years ago but I've never found sheet music to it.
  • Xav
    Posts: 23
    Rise Up, O Men of God.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Go, Labor On is excellent.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,956
    Cheese comes in many flavors and forms. I remember this one from my days playing for the Protestants in the wonderful late sixties. You can decide if it is better or worse than the Schutte LOL.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDxP3XwL8zo
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85

    Chris Garton-Zavesky, Please forgive me for trying to put words in your mouth. I was only trying to tease out an explicit expression of an attitude about certain branches of Protestantism implicit in your earlier comment. I certainly agree with your admonishment of caution in selecting and promoting texts (and music) for use in liturgy. I would also urge caution in rushing to judgement about the legitimacy of Christian faith among our "separated brethren, and offer the following observation by Pope Benedict XVI for consideration (The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, p. 88):

    The difficulty in the way of giving an answer is a profound one. Ultimately it is due to the fact that there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian. In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Lfor a vocation song to really make sense, for Christians, it seems to me it must be Christological.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    advocatus

    no, heresy still exists. apostates and schismatics too. modernism would have us think different.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    F Blanf Tucker's excellent paraphrase of Phil 2 (the canticle sung at the First Vespers of Sunday) comes to mind. ENGELBERG is the tune usually associated with it.

    1. All praise to thee, for thou, O King divine,

    didst yield the glory that of right was thine,

    that in our darkened hearts thygrace might shine.



    2. Thou cam’st to us in lowliness of thought;

    by thee the outcast and the poor were sought;

    and by thy death was God’s salvation wrought.



    3. Let this mind be in us which was in thee,

    who wast a servant that we might be free,

    humbling thyself to death on Calvary.



    4. Wherefore, by God’s eternal purpose, thou

    art high exalted o’er all creatures now,

    and given the Name to which all knees shall bow.



    5. Let every tongue confess with one accord

    in heaven and earth that Jesus Christ is Lord;

    and God the Father be by all adored.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    no, not wheat. wheat does not give off the unpleasant odor of cheesy.

    cheesy adjective (BAD STYLE)
    › informal of bad quality or in bad taste:
    cheesy hotel music
    cheesy adverts
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    no, heresy still exists. apostates and schismatics too. modernism would have us think different.


    Modernism may have us think that, but the Church has a more nuanced understanding than you are proposing...unless you are really proposing that the Church is off the rails in its approach to ecumenism, in which case, I would reply, "Welcome to the cafeteria."
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    but the Church has a more nuanced understanding than you are proposing.
    which church is that? ...the modern Catholic?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    engelberg is nice, not cheesy.
    Come with me into the fields? pick a flavor.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    The Church calls the separated brethren "Christians" rather than "heretics."

    They are not re- baptized when they become Catholics, because they are already Christians.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    funny thing about ecumenism... it welcomes everyone except traditional catholics
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Francis! Calm down!
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    I am calm. Are you?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm extremely calm. Almost comatose.
    And I quietly suggest that "Engelberg" could, in fact, be considered a tad cheesy, particularly around the octave leap.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,711
    it may have a small curd here and there, but the other piece is in a class of its own
  • Francis, Advocatus,

    I'll take His Holiness' gambit. Modern Protestants aren't initiating a heresy, and may be, in fact, ignorant of their need to enter into Communion with Christ and His Church, but by adhering to a heresy started by someone else (as would be true if someone adopted Arianism, Americanism, Modernism, or Albigensianism) these people are accepting as true that which is false, rejecting at least some portion of what is true as if it were false, and are joining a heretical group in obstinate (if, perhaps, subjectively innocent) rejection of the truth.


    I can think of any number of examples of works (texts) which have been penned by heretics, some of whom never make it through the Tiber-swim, but which are valuable.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Some of you fellows may be thinking about ecclesiology in unnuanced terms that are not careful enough for the subject.

    The Church has thought this through carefully and in what I consider to be a genius paragraph of Lumen Gentium, expresses the reality of the situation.

    Please note that giving credit where credit is due does not prevent hoping and working towards full communion.
    The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth. (LG 15)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    And I quietly suggest that "Engelberg" could, in fact, be considered a tad cheesy, particularly around the octave leap.
    This is a fair criticism of the tune, imho, and yet I think the author (who also did Father, We Thank Thee) did a good job, at least in verses 1,2, 4, and 5, of matching his text to the leap--almost to the point of word painting in the last two verses.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,956
    Modern Protestants aren't initiating a heresy, and may be, in fact, ignorant of their need to enter into Communion with Christ and His Church...


    Modern Protestants, for the most part, would be considered heretics by the founders of their denominations and would likely be driven out or burned alive. Contemporary Protestants have essentially rejected many or most of the teachings of their founders.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Contemporary Protestants have essentially rejected many or most of the teachings of their founders.


    I dunno. A lot of Episcopalians are still pretty bullish on divorce, big government, and hating on the Pope.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,956
    I dunno. A lot of Episcopalians are still pretty bullish on divorce, big government, and hating on the Pope.


    Those things, yes. However, compare them with Episcopalians in the 19th and early 20th centuries and it is clear their personal morality and gender doctrines have changed. Calvin would call down heavenly fire on most USA Presbyterian congregations if he could see what they are professing these days.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Charles,

    Modern Protestants, for the most part, would be considered heretics by the founders of their denominations and would likely be driven out or burned alive. Contemporary Protestants have essentially rejected many or most of the teachings of their founders.


    Hence, my reason for urging caution.

    Kathy,

    When the Council and the Catechism also aver that he who knows the Church to be established by Christ and yet refuse to enter it can not be saved, these sources do not contradict the Council and the Catechism when these same claim that "we entrust to God's mercy" those who die without baptism.

    Let me raise a different issue, which expands my reason for urging caution.

    In a classroom at an authentically Catholic college, one may read Karl Marx to learn what his errors are, what part of the truth he retains, and similar things. That it can be appropriate to allow Marx to enter our classrooms in this manner and for this purpose can not be taken as justification of attempts to use Karl Marx (or his descendant, Liberation Theologians) in the public worship of the Church.

    A hymn about vocations from a Protestant source can not properly be adopted without careful scrutiny. This is true if the source is Hymnal 1940 The Lutheran Book of Worship or any other book.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,173
    Interestingly enough, ENGELBERG [10.10.10.4] was originally composed by Charles Villiers Stanford (1852-1924) for the hymn "For all the Saints" by William Walsham How (1823-1897) and published as such in the 1904 edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern.

    Ralph Vaughan Williams (1872-1958) composed the tune SINE NOMINE [10.10.10.4.4] for the same text and published it in the English Hymnal in 1906. Joseph Barnby's tune BARNBY (also called SARUM) [10.10.104.4] was also in use for "For all the Saints", and upon the publication of SINE NOMINE, ENGELBERG fell out of favor and is rarely heard with its originally intended text. SINE NOMINE is used in about 60% and BARNBY in about 33% of hymnals for "For all the Saints".

    Not surprisingly, SINE NOMINE is also used for F. Bland Tucker's "All praise to thee, for thou, O King divine". In fact, SINE NOMINE for this text occurs in about 40% of the hymnals, while ENGELBERG occurs in just shy of 50% of the hymnals.

    Indeed, when I googled "all praise to thee for thou o king" to refresh and enhance my recollections of this hymn, I got two youtube videos listed first, both to the tune SINE NOMINE!! I agree with Kathy that Tucker didn't do a bad job at all of fitting the text of "All praise..." to ENGELBERG, especially vis-a-vis the octave leap. Personally, I think that ENGELBERG is not quite up to the high standard set by SINE NOMINE, which is arguably one of the finest English hymn tunes of the 20th century.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,501
    Chris,

    For about a decade now, i've been an outspoken advocate of taking hymns individually and evaluating them theologically. I've carefully analyzed the texts of hymns on my own blog, on the Chant Cafe, on this forum, in the process of editing a hymnal, and in published articles.

    I don't really need to be reminded about the need for scrutiny! However, it is good advice.
  • I dunno [sic], a lot of Episcopalians....

    It's really a stretch to speak of Episcopalians (or any Anglicans [outside of Africa, maybe] for that matter) as if they were all in any way doctrinally or pietistically a single entity. The particular genius of the Anglican Communion is that it is comprised of those who really are Catholic in doctrine and piety but for the 'bloated claims of the papacy' (these are the real Anglo-Catholics), others who like the trappings of catholicity but don't really believe the Catholic Faith (these are 'high church' sorts some of whom think they are Anglo-Catholic but aren't), others who are actually Methodists or Presbyterians (as opposed to Wesleyans and Calvinists) but who like the BCP and liturgical worship, others who are unabashed evangelicals who are not at all really comfortable with sacraments and orders (let alone the real doctrine which a careful reading of the BCP will reveal), others who use the prestige and catholic-likeness of this unique ecclesial entity to advance quite eccentric social and moral agendas which are anathema to the True Faith, plus any number of others which one could enumerate with another few hundred words. Genuine Oxford-movement Anglo-Catholicism has seen itself become the final loser amongst those who would claim to be the most legitimate of Anglican paradigms. I said 'the final loser', but the existential climate of the vast and kaleidoscopic Anglican tent resulted, ultimately in these Anglo-Catholics' approach to Rome which yielded John Paul II's Pastoral Provision, Benedict XVI's Anglicanorum Coetibus, then his Ordinariates, and finally their own bishop - and, thusly, they are the real winners, not the real losers. This latter was a dream I first had in the late 1960s and always and unswervingly believed would come to pass, even when some of my Anglo-Catholic priest friends thought it was as unlikely as snow in Houston. We are now bursting at the seams and our bishop believes that we will grow exponentially over the next ten years. Why, just last week we had a group of Presbyterians visit Walsingham to talk to our rector about becoming Catholic - really Catholic! Pray for us. God has been and is being good to us and using us for his divine purposes.

    So, please, be careful and considerate when bunching 'Episcopalians' together. There isn't an 'ecclesial entity' that has undergone such a great degree of spiritual travail and schizoid identity crises as has this once promising, once basically Catholic, church which (at its best) thought of itself as a 'branch' of the supposed three-branched Catholic Church - the other two 'branches' being Rome and Orthodoxy.

    OH, AND THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL CHEESY ABOUT ENGELBERG - (just so you know!)

    AND, Charles is right about modern Protestants' lack of faithfulness to their founders' doctrine and discipline. I've yet to meet a genuine Calvinist. I've met very few Lutherans whose liturgy and piety wouldn't drive Luther into an apoplectic rage, etc., though there do exist here and there Lutherans who are quite high church and with a devout seriousness believe themselves to be authentic 'reformed' Catholics. Increasingly, though, our churches and our denominations are mirroring the same fragmentatious, splintering, 'diversities' that our society as a whole is struggling to make sense of without descending into utter nihilism.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,093
    I have found Lutherans to be more doctrinally consistent, though they are mostly LCMS, not ELCA, these days. Though my friend, who converted to Catholicism, as an ELCA youth did use the Small Catechism of Luther.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    So, please, be careful and considerate when bunching 'Episcopalians' together.


    Joke. It was a joke.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy,

    Fair enough. I would like my comments to stand as an argument for those who need to be persuaded.

    God bless,

    Chris
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,956
    So, please, be careful and considerate when bunching 'Episcopalians' together. There isn't an 'ecclesial entity' that has undergone such a great degree of spiritual travail and schizoid identity crises as has this once promising, once basically Catholic, church which (at its best) thought of itself as a 'branch' of the supposed three-branched Catholic Church - the other two 'branches' being Rome and Orthodoxy.


    Jackson is correct as to what that denomination has suffered. It's an old joke that Satan keeps the Anglican Communion together to prove a house divided against itself can stand. They are certainly divided and it is sometimes difficult to find the common ground among them.
  • ...joke...
    Sorry, Adam.
    I reread your comment and now see the 'humour'.
    I have just finished singing a mea culpa to the Tonus Adamus, formerly known as the Recto Tono.