A church musician pushed too far. Assumption Grotto
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    There's a lot of baloney written here.

    I'm pretty certain that the bishop anticipated what would happen, and had a response prepared. I'm equally sure that he takes seriously his responsibility to catechise all people in the area, not just those with refined musical sensibilities, who I would imagine were extremely well catered for during the rest of the service.

    And during the sermon, he most certainly has control over whatever music or any other activity happens. The organist needs a damn good dose of humility.
    Thanked by 2Olivier Spriggo
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    The minute this becomes about taste is the minute this becomes a losing battle. Refined musical sensibilities have nothing to do with it.

    I think the humility bit also applies to using musical instruments and songs in a homily...
  • I prefer tomjaw's second suggestion and have said versions of it many times. The problem is not what children can learn but what their teachers and parents and clergy know how to teach. Those who don't know or like always assume that everyone else doesn't know and doesn't want to know - and they will see to it that they are not proven wrong, because that would expose their own ignorance.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Here are the relevant passages from the documents:

    SC 28:

    In liturgical celebrations each person, minister or layman, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to his office by the
    nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.


    SC 52:

    By means of the homily the mysteries of the faith and the guiding principles of the Christian life are expounded from the sacred text, during the course of the liturgical year; the homily, therefore, is to be highly esteemed as part of the liturgy
    itself; in fact, at those Masses which are celebrated with the assistance of the
    people on Sundays and feasts of obligation, it should not be omitted except for a
    serious reason.


    GIRM 65:

    The Homily is part of the Liturgy and is highly recommended, for it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian life. It should be an explanation of some aspect of the readings from Sacred Scripture or of another text from the Ordinary or the Proper of the Mass of the day and should take into account both the mystery being celebrated and the particular needs of the listeners.


    Since I am not at this time immediately informed as to the content of the Scripture for that day (if indeed the Scripture for the day was read, and specific passages not chosen due to the nature of the Confirmation Rite), the argument could be made that the song was part of the message pertaining to the Scripture, which would conform to the passages listed above.

    Still, I think it is a self-centered and poor decision to attempt to include such a song, as if people needed it to get their attention, or to make the message more agreeable.

    However, from GIRM 124:

    Ordinaries, by the encouragement and favor they show to art which is truly
    sacred, should strive after noble beauty rather than mere sumptuous display.


    I would think the type of performance to which we are referring would fall under the category of "sumptuous display."
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • ...to which we are referring...

    Sumptuous???!!!
    More 'bumpkinly', I would say!
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I'm equally sure that he takes seriously his responsibility to catechise all people in the area


    No, he doesn't, unless Tiny Tim is also a catechist. What you have here is a serious breach of the "sacred time, sacred space, sacred language, sacred music" boundaries of the Mass.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    How does it make sense for a principal to argue against learning?

    The principal just isn't familiar with the facts about Latin. Latin is one of the top ten most studied languages in the US, and in primary and secondary schools, it's in the top five.

    And our kids are smart enough for it. To quote a line from the renowned Latinist Reginald Foster: "Every prostitute and bum in Rome knew Latin."
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    According to the link,
    the Bp D H has offered mass in the E F.
    An E F community had to ask no ukulele.

    Someone familiar with E F rubrics please
    tell me what instruments are permitted during E F.
    And yes I want to be edified by citations.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Here's a relevant 1958 document with guidelines on instruments:
    http://www.adoremus.org/1958Intro-sac-mus.html#anchor36297672
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700

    Someone familiar with E F rubrics please
    tell me what instruments are permitted during E F.
    And yes I want to be edified by citations.


    In the EF the homily is considered outside of the Mass.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    It's still inside the church, though.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Here's a question: If the people in the congregation had started laughing, singing along and clapping and dancing during the sermon, would that have been frowned upon as much as what the organist did?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Reval
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. It seems to me that once the celebrant goes off the page, the rules break down, and it all becomes uncharted territory.
  • Reval
    Posts: 186
    Here's a question: If the people in the congregation had started laughing, singing along and clapping and dancing during the sermon, would that have been frowned upon as much as what the organist did?


    Yes -- that's what I always wonder, on those occasions when they break out the bongos / tambourines at Mass. If they're going to play dance music, they should expect to get...dancing, right? But then I'm afraid that that would embolden the musicians even more, if I ironically snap my fingers in the pew...
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    To quote a line from the renowned Latinist Reginald Foster: "Every prostitute and bum in Rome knew Latin."


    "Latinists" have roughly the same social standing in the Church nowadays. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
  • P.S. It seems to me that once the celebrant goes off the page, the rules break down, and it all becomes uncharted territory.


    Where have I sensed the truth of this staterment before? Hmmmm
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    I still think the best way is to get up and walk out... Members of our congregation do it with some of our visiting preachers. They wait at the back of the Church / outside and come back in when Mass starts. (EDIT Restarts.)

    N.B. The visiting preachers, preach at all Masses 4 N.O. and 1 E.F.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I still think the best way is to get up and walk out


    Well, it's less forceful than Imposition of Full Organ With Reeds. But either one is fine.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    They wait at the back of the Church / outside and come back in when Mass starts.

    What a curious and quaint notion of when "Mass" begins.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    What a curious and quaint notion of when "Mass" begins.


    Thanks, I meant to write restarts...
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    many times mass is suspended at the homily
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    "many times mass is suspended at the homily"

    Just send the Mass to corner and tell it to come back in 5 minutes. Suspending it means its mom or dad has to work from home during suspension.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    Some priests won't bother to take off their maniple at the sermon. Does that mean mass is still going on? And if he isn't giving his sermon in Latin, does that make it a liturgical abuse?
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    It’s so bizarre not to take off the maniple. It would distract everyone who knows what the routine is.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Has anyone heard anything from the organist? Or the Bishop, for that matter?

    I question the assumption being made in this thread's title. The organ begins by accompanying the bishop's song. Only once the bishop finishes does the organist move into free improv.

    It's possible the organist was simply " joining in the fun." It's also possible that the bishop thought the organist was joining in the fun, even if he wasn't. And it is finally possible that the organist intended to offer "joining in the fun" as his plausible explanation, should any pushback arise.
  • It's possible...

    Let us hope that he wasn't 'joining in the fun'! This would make him definitely more culpable by far than he already might (in the eyes of some, but not mine) be.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    It's possible the organist was simply " joining in the fun."

    Little Joe, you gotta get out of Berkeley every now and then, y'know.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    P.S. It seems to me that once the celebrant goes off the page, the rules break down, and it all becomes uncharted territory.

    When exactly did the celebrant go off-page? He gave his homily, and it included showing people a song about the holy spirit which he used at bible camp (or somesuch - I haven't watched again to double check he words). He didn't ask people to join in. He didn't play during any other part of the liturgy. He simply used a teaching tool during the time allocated for preaching.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    There are a few points in which the performance was not well suited for the occasion.

    The repetitive little song is suited for children much younger than the average group of confirmation candidates. After all, bible camps are designed for those younger kids. I don't want to assume too much, but I expect teenagers would find it patronizing to be addressed with that song.

    The ukulele, although it is a standard folk-music instrument in Hawaii, does not have a high image in America. For better or worse, I think people look on it as a toy-like instrument.

    In recent decades, the most famous non-Hawaiian performer associated with the ukulele was the 1970s vaudeville-nostalgia performer "Tiny Tim", noted for his falsetto singing.
    tiny-tim.jpg
    200 x 225 - 17K
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Sorry, Richard, you need to keep up with current events. Ukelele's have been a consistent growing market in music retailing for the last few years. You might want to Google "Kamaka Ukelele's" to see how fashionable and investment level pricy they've become.
    In addition, you might want to 'Youtube' Hawaiian Jake Shimabukuro, whom I had the pleasure of seeing in concert this last March.
    Of course, I don't think they're cut out for liturgy, but I know a few Hawaiians and Portuguese that would differ.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gaWuadgL3g&list=RD0gaWuadgL3g
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Which is all the more reason for its inappropriateness...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The repetitive little song is suited for children much younger than the average group of confirmation candidates.


    While I get where @chonak is coming from, I just want to interject...

    I have never, and will never, teach my toddler this song, or songs like it.

    I'm always annoyed when people categorize bad music in this sort of way. People are always saying such-a-such a song is suitable for "church camp," and I always want to say NO, NOT EVEN THEN.

    Children, and campers, can do much better.

  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Adam, I'm disappointed: no Grumpy Cat meme!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Opportunistic tangent:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMbQsKJ64S0

    For movie buffs:

    The song came from the Gold Diggers of Broadway (1929), one of the most fascinating productions of the early talkie era - one of the last cinematic glimpses of Broadway's true Golden Age in the Roaring Twenties before The Crash - here's a wonderful production number in two-color Technicolor:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwuuqBVECkw

    The bishop's homily lacked . . . production values.
  • I agree, wholeheartedly and then some, with Adam just above. Who is responsible for the widespread notion that children's music must be cretinesque, on, presumably, the assumption that children are all mentally deficient? I suspect that this is another case of cretins assuming that, since they are cretins, everyone else is, as well. If I had children, I would never let any of these 'uneducators' near them.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen dad29
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Melo, I actually know about the uke fad; I just spent four years as a music undergraduate and saw students pick up the instrument when it happened. That little phenomenon supplements but doesn't contradict my points above.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    I suspect that this is another case of cretins assuming that, since they are cretins, everyone else is, as well.


    Or--if they're not cretins--they are certainly mentally challenged. This is also what's known as "dumbing down", and the current example is the Oberlin snowflake.

    What they need is one of two things: either to be silenced or swatted upside the head.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    I have never, and will never, teach my toddler this song, or songs like it.


    You might just be surprised - and horrified - by what your toddler learns from sources other than you, and likes.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    In response to "Do you think the children/adults are too stupid to understand Latin?", there is an elitist attitude within the American Church. I have been told that English speaking congregations would find learning Latin much more easy Hispanic congregations. What? Spanish and Latin have so many similarities! Yes, there are some in English, but English is far more related to German that Latin. Diocesan employees definitely consider the Hispanic community less intellectual and almost unteachable. I have witnessed this in more than one Diocese.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The elitist attitude also carries an assumption: since the (parish staffer, music director, priest, etc.) didn't learn Latin, other people in the parish who are less expert about religion than themselves wouldn't know it.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The elitist attitude also carries an assumption: since the (parish staffer, music director, priest, etc.) didn't learn Latin, other people in the parish who are less expert about religion than themselves wouldn't know it.


    Or are incapable of learning it. I once had a priest tell me that "the educational level of the congregation precludes the use of Latin."

    It's another one of those "the congregation is too stupid to learn Latin" excuses. And no, I don't really think he truly believed what he said.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    I once had a priest tell me that "the educational level of the congregation precludes the use of Latin."


    Which translates to "the pedagogical level of the priest precludes him instructing his congregation in the Mother Tongue of the Church."
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    And you thought we had problems with clericalism before Vatican II!
  • The comment just above needn't have been in purple!

    About those priests whose opinions about the faithful are that they can't appreciate Latin and other highly desirable things is typical of Catholic clericalism, which holds the 'laity' in very low regard. An Anglican would teach the people what they don't know and lift them up. The (typical) Catholic priest would throw anything out the window that he thought the people didn't know or wouldn't like. This thinking saw its greatest triumph in the years following Vatican II. Where the council specifically stated 'preserve' and 'foster' (Latin, chant, sacred music, and much else) most priests, bishops, and seminaries translated as 'reject' and 'forbid'. And many of them are still doing it. And most of this many don't know themselves and don't want anyone around who does - it would put their (cherished and cultivated) ignorance in the spotlight.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    An aside. Will this be our own Jackson mentioned in the AGO magazine, premiering a large organ work for the convention? Congratulations!
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    What Jackson said above!! In spades!!!

    Always thought that (after the Sacraments) the first duty of a priest is to teach.
  • Will this be...

    Many thanks for the compliment, Charles, but this isn't me. I could go check my The American Organist, but I've already given it away. I rarely keep them because they rarely have anything in them of any scholarly note. One would expect more from such a jounal, wouldn't one? But then, what can you expect from people who accept misleading advertisements for organ simulacra?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,100
    "The church is now a business . . . "

    Not just now. It was even MORE of a business when it was a significant landowner, landlord (and huge rent-and-tithe collector) and sovereign ruler of church-states. For many centuries.

    maybe a business, more in the sense of "sheep need to be sheared, as well as fed".

    Growing up, I always heard that to be ordained a priest, a man needed a certain sanctity; but that one consecrated bishop would be on his way to becoming a saint. sigh
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • .
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Wow, we may have a 1700-year old commenter here....