Advice on incorporating styles and cultures
  • Tommy
    Posts: 6
    Hi all. I'm after a bit of advice....

    I voluntarily play the organ and lead the choir at a large Catholic church in the UK. When I arrived the long established choir of parishioners who don't really read music were singing 4 hymns and maybe a mass setting or two. 5 years later I have weeded out all the second rate hymns, we sing the psalm and the ordinary every week and I have moved away from the hymn sandwich by introducing John Ainslie's English Proper Chants at the entrance and communion. In terms of chant, that is a big thing for me so we sing the mass setting from the missal, the Missa De Angelis, the simple setting in Latin, Agnus xvii for Sundays of Advent and Lent, Ave Verum, Salve Regina, and Regina Caeli.

    I am blessed to have a parish priest who is very traditional and likes things done properly. He usually sings the greeting, Kyrie, intones the Gloria, collect, preface dialogue and preface, and per ipsum. He has always bee very supportive of me and music in the liturgy.

    However.........

    we have a large Eastern European community who have formed a small group of singers and use a keyboard and a guitar. The sing in Polish or Slovakian and the style of their music is much more modern 'praise and worship' style stuff. It's really not my thing. We used to have 2 Masses on a Sunday and they provided the music for the second Mass. Now we only have on Mass and they join in occasionally, maybe playing one or two items at the offertory or communion for example.
    The other Sunday I was away and my usual cover was unable to make it so the PP said the Polish group could do the whole lot for Mass. They had all of their kids involved and the PP thought it was absolutely wonderful for them to be involved and is now adamant that we somehow merge/ incorporate/ harness their enthusiasm and he has asked me to have a think about how we do it. He's dead keen on developing the parish along these lines and the Eastern European community has his full support.

    The problem is, I'm not keen on it.

    Firstly, I'm a volunteer and don't feel like I could really devote any more time.
    Secondly, I don't really like the idea of singing in languages other than English or Latin in a church in England. I mean, if I moved to Italy I wouldn't dream of establishing an English choir where I was going to Mass.
    Thirdly, I wouldn't know where to begin with 'bringing things together' in terms of who was in charge/ repertoire/ rehearsals, etc.

    I feel liked I've worked really hard with the parish choir to get things up to scratch and done properly and a lot of that may be in jeopardy for the sake of involvement and participation. I know it is important for no-one to be excluded from offering their gifts but their music is not liturgical and they do not join in with any of the 'regular' music - hymns, ordinary etc.

    Any advice would be much appreciated. Am I being churlish? Should I suck it up and make the best of it? Or should I try to stick to the liturgical goals of singing chant, use of the organ, etc?

    Many thanks and sorry for the long post.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    You should talk to someone from Dandenong North Parish in Victoria Australia.

    They do things like stations on Fridays in Lent altogether and take turns with each culture. Dunno if that is useful.
    They have Mauritian, Sudanese, Polish, English, Irish, Trad Latin, I think some Philippines lots of different cultures and it kinda just becomes "such n such will lead this mass or that mass."
    What ever they are doing I can tell you it works.

    With only a couple of days notice they held a Latin mass on a Friday night and something like 300 people turned up. It was actually nuts!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Is it just the musical group that consists of these Poles and Slovaks, or is it an entire gathering of the congregation that attends Mass at the same time, perhaps for the sake of hearing this musical group? That will affect your situation significantly.

    I am wondering what has happened to spark this change in mentality from your priest. Why hasn't he suggested this before? I don't know how long you have only had the one Mass and two groups situation, but if it wasn't immediately suggested that some sort of joint effort be made, something has happened in the interim which has changed the priest's mind, and I for one would want to know what that was. It seems like an abrupt change of course.

    I feel liked I've worked really hard with the parish choir to get things up to scratch and done properly and a lot of that may be in jeopardy for the sake of involvement and participation. I know it is important for no-one to be excluded from offering their gifts but their music is not liturgical and they do not join in with any of the 'regular' music - hymns, ordinary etc.


    This needs to be brought to the priest's attention IMMEDIATELY. Do not wait to let him know how you feel about it. You may not get what you want, but he cannot possibly help you if you don't tell him. Ask him why he wants you to incorporate this other group, and perhaps ask him for suggestions on how to do it: this will help reveal his vision for it. You can even ask him the following question: "What would you like to see come of this?" or "How do you envision the final product?" That would be extremely useful information in helping you make sure that you get it right (you can, and probably should, tell him that as well: you want to work with him to make sure that his entire vision, the way he wants it, is realized).

    As for actually incorporating them, if they aren't willing to do what you're doing, then there is no incorporation. My suggestion would be to have them alternate weekends with you, but make sure that some aspects of each are used by both: the P/W style group sings the proper the way you've been (or at least the Communion, etc.), and you have at least one of their type of hymn when you play. It's a compromise, so nobody really gets what they want, but it would solve your problem. Or, you can just alternate weekends and leave the programming as is. Your priest might not like that because the congregation gets a different experience every other week.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Tommy
    Posts: 6
    Thanks for your help.

    There's a fairly large chunk of the congregation who are Eastern European but I don't think they come for their style of music. It's more that some of the community formed this music group and they sing themselves - there's no participation from the rest of the Eastern Europeans in the congregation.

    I think the week when there was no organist available and they led the music for the whole mass (apart from the ordinary which was the Missal setting a capella) led him to think they should have a greater role, especially as there were a good number of children involved and there are very few English families there.

    I have tried to get out of him his vision or the 'end result' but he seems to want this to be worked out between our respective groups, I suppose so that we have ownership or he's not mandating what will happen or whatever.

    A further consideration is that the parishes in our local area are going to be sharing priests from September (we don't know who the priest will be yet) and at least two of the other churches have no organist. We're supposed to be thinking much more as a community of Catholics in the wider area rather than as individual parishes so I did have an idea that I could offer to play elsewhere, perhaps once a month, or rotate around in order to make more room for the Eastern European group without having the additional responsibilities.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz Elmar
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    have tried to get out of him his vision or the 'end result' but he seems to want this to be worked out between our respective groups, I suppose so that we have ownership or he's not mandating what will happen or whatever.


    Here's my two bits on this part, FWIW: he's already mandating what will happen since he's asked for this to occur (a request from the boss is just a polite order, yes?). He may want you to feel that sense of ownership over it so that you'll be motivated to get it done, but he is already mandating it.

    We're supposed to be thinking much more as a community of Catholics in the wider area rather than as individual parishes so I did have an idea that I could offer to play elsewhere, perhaps once a month, or rotate around in order to make more room for the Eastern European group without having the additional responsibilities.


    I think you're on the right track with this.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    If you can find another parish to serve, do so.
    At any rate, your meaningful contribution to this parish has come to a close.
    You would be absolutely miserable constantly making compromises and enduring the unendurable.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW CHGiffen ClergetKubisz Casavant Organist
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    At any rate, your meaningful contribution to this parish has come to a close.


    This happens quickly sometimes, doesn't it?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Casavant Organist
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Maybe I am just getting older and more curmudgeonly, but I am seeing the wisdom of settling with like minded folks and building walls all around. LOL. In some instances, it isn't worth the personal toll to continually deal with others. A plague on all of them. Dunghills for their houses. It's too good for them.

    I think Jackson called this one pretty accurately.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Oh dear. I'm back to disagreeing with Charles.

    It's not completely helpless, but I think you and the group should sit down to discover if any kind of compromise is actually possible. If "compromise" is just a synonym for surrender, refuse. If "compromise" is your pastor's way of trying to have only one parish under one roof, it's not an evil thing in itself. Even if the group doesn't presently sing any of the "regular" music, the group's involvement in "regular" music could be part of a compromise. (Where I grew up, in the American rust belt, ethnic enclaves allowed homogenous parishes.... but out here in California, not so much).

    Whatever you do, don't make the compromise position 'personal', by which I mean that what should come out isn't a win/lose situation, but a fulfillment of what the Church asks us to do. Sit down with the Church's actual teaching. Read richly in Papal Legislation on Sacred Music.
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious Elmar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Chris, who knows? You may be right. I think you have to be there to accurately assess the situation. However, there are things that send up some red flags to me, and I think that is what Jackson noticed.
  • Tommy
    Posts: 6
    Thanks everyone. Lots to chew over.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I just do not understand these "cultures." Are we not of one culture, that of the Roman Catholic Church? Good grief.

    That said, I ran into this at a previous parish that had a large Dominican population. They had their own separate Mass, thankfully, but we occasionally needed to come together. Mercifully, when we were due to do so, very few from the hispanic population showed up; however, there were times when we weren't due to collaborate, but it was a bi-cultural/lingual Mass. One of those, to my frustration, was Holy Thursday. My solution was finding music that was less offensive stylistically, but in Spanish. That seemed to work. In fact, one year, we even chanted the psalm in Spanish. I used Latin for the Sanctus and Agnus Dei since many in the community follow Papal Masses very closely and would have known and could probably join in on Sanctus and Agnus XVIII. There are ways...

    Normally, I would say exactly what others have said - you're done and need to move on. But since you have a supportive priest, I think it may warrant a conversation exactly as you've stated here. In the case of the Parish above, it wasn't this specifically that drove me out, but if it had been a bigger issue, they definitely would have chosen the culture over me.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I work in a Polish parish in the US: most things are in English or Latin, but we do sing hymns in Polish. However, the hymns we sing were all written prior to 1900 (most are from Spiewnik Koscielne, first published in 1885(?)), and though they are embued with a good element of authentic and unmistakably Polish style, just as Vaughan Williams is unmistakably English and Bach is unmistakably German, they are really organ-based music. I am (thankfully, perhaps) unfamiliar with contemporary Polish ecclesiastical music--except for Gorecki, but that's probably more the exception than the rule--so I don't know if what they are doing is actually new folsky-music, or the old music done in the current folksy style. If you're hearing things like Baddzze Pozdrowiona or Serdeczna Matko or Pod Twa obrone with guitars know that that is the same as hearing DOWN AMPNEY, PRAXIS PIETATIS, or MICHAEL with guitars.

    Perhaps they could be encouraged to (slowly) ditch their guitars and do these pieces with organ accompaniment?
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I just do not understand these "cultures."


    That's because most of the time it's code, and not very deep code at that, for arbitrary bull-snot. Note:

    The sing in Polish or Slovakian and the style of their music is much more modern 'praise and worship' style stuff


    One might as well say the "Nae Nae" is cultural and must be accommodated in liturgy.

    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,023
    That said, I ran into this at a previous parish that had a large Dominican population. They had their own separate Mass, thankfully, but we occasionally needed to come together.


    That must be terrible; I once worked at a parish with a large Franciscan population, but they insisted on doing all the Masses... *shudder* ... consider yourself fortunate.
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