Elevation inappropriate for offertory on Pentecost?
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    G'day,

    Just settling an argument with a mate.
    I believe you can absolutely play an elevation on Pentecost during offertory time.
    He believes you can't.
    The organist who is playing said elevation is already supplying a half hour recital free of charge.
    I don't want to nitpick but is this sacrilege?
    Can someone explain why?
    Are pieces entitled "elevation" purely titled such because they HAVE to be played during the elevation of the host?

    Please help. Head being bitten off here. About to go troppo.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    I should note the particular piece entitled elevation is absolutely written for the elevation of the host but surely this doesn't mean it may only be played in this instance?

    I guess I wonder how important the TITLE of a piece is particularly when the pieces played are of a high standard and beautifully lyrical?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    Surely you are not thinking of playing an 'elevation' during the canon. These pieces were written for the Tridentine rite and a very different liturgical aesthesis from that of our time. Such pieces would be out of place in the Novus Ordo, and, I should think, even the Extraordinary Form in our day - unless you are doing a historically referenced mass for a special gathering. On the other hand, these pieces would be ideal for playing during communions. I have used them for that many times.
    Thanked by 2Jes SarahJ
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Yes. I suggested just switch it to communion.
    EF mass.
    But it's permissible to play on Pentecost yes?
    And not all elevations are the same. Limited choice for this organist.
    But like completely inappropriate to play at offertory vs nothing at all?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    On Pentecost or any day. Just not during the actual Elevation. At communions, or, if you wish, offertory - though I think a better choice for an offertory would be a basse et dessus de trompette or such - if not an actual offertoire

    There are others here who are far more competent than I to weigh in on the EF.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz Jes
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    There is a 1958 document which says there should be no playing of instruments during the Consecration; it urges (but does not require) silence after the Consecration.

    At sung Mass, the document states (section 27):
    e) During the Consecration, the singing must stop, and there should be no playing of instruments; if this has been the custom, it should be discontinued.

    f) Between the Consecration, and the Pater Noster a devout silence is recommended.


    It also contains restrictions on organ for said ("low") Masses.

    By the way, I'm just reporting on what this document says; I don't know if there are any other relevant materials that would indicate anything different.
    Thanked by 6M. Jackson Osborn ClergetKubisz Jes Casavant Organist CHGiffen Chris Hebard
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    so a piece entitled elevation during the mass but not during the elevation should be okay?
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Yes the 1958 doc is a good one to follow but my question is more about whether a piece titled elevation can be played during offertory.

    Incidentally my parish does interesting things here just after consecration we always have music but it is to be as soft and "spidery" as possible.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Everyday is a historically referenced day just about haha.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I'm not aware of any restriction against playing elevation pieces at other times when instrumental music is permitted.
    Thanked by 5ClergetKubisz Jes Casavant Organist Ben eft94530
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,318
    If it's a Sung Mass, if the Sanctus is chanted, you could also sing it after the consecration.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I don't see why there would be a restriction on what you have said. So long as there is no explicit restriction on instrumental music during that part of the Mass (could also apply for seasonal reasons, such as Advent and Lent), you are permitted to play. I'm not sure where your friend is getting his or her information.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I once heard an organist play background music for the entire consecration. If you remember the old-timey soap operas with the Hammond background music, you would be close. Strangest thing I have ever heard.

    I tend to do as Jackson stated and use some of those lovely French elevations for communion. You have to remember that once upon a time, the elevation was considered of great importance and worth celebrating. Now that the entire canon has taken a back seat to the sermon, the whole consecration and elevation are something rushed through - generally because so much time was taken up by Father's ramblings. I would heartily agree something is wrong here.
    Thanked by 4Jes ClergetKubisz Casavant Organist advocatus
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,094
    I am assuming the question is in the context of the EF, because there is in the OF instrumental music is forbidden during the presidential prayers, including the canon.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Thanks for siding with me! I was about to blow a gasket! I get that it is high mass but the choice of that particular elevation can't be so bad.

    Haha yeah the consecration music I play (though I personally would prefer the silence to say my before communion prayers) is generally requested as the atonal stuff. It seems to get called "spider music." Dunno why but as soft as possible atonal is apparently the way it's done?
    I think the congregation probably sit there thinking "oh dear, she really does need an exorcist" right at that moment and then I snap back into my communion romantic stuff.
    I generally start just after the wine has been consecrated and I stop on the second genuflection? Though how I manage to spot it among the notes I don't know haha.
    I've noticed other EF organists play before me when communion starts for a little bit too after the Agnus Dei but we don't, we wait til the first person receives the host.

    And like @mjacksonosborn suggested I prefer to actually play offertoire during offertory time but I also understand it's a lot more notes for someone also performing a 30 minute recital on the same day and this elevation is lyrical enough to be considered a fancy one... I feel like I need to stick up for this bloke.
    I tend to be too soft at offertory though. Which I think the congregation prefer but clergy do not. I'm just not going to rock out my concert chops at weekly mass, it doesn't feel right or humble.

    For high mass I generally try to find things with very generic titles like andante or moderato with the occasional verset shoved in. I occasionally crack out my rococo stuff and some perotin just to keep it grungy.

    At low mass it's a different story, I still have to provide a list of four works but I might choose to just do one organ mass and pick out movements which tend to be more French baroque and have those titles specific to the parts of the mass.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    I play extraordinary, ordinary and ordinariate forms so far.
    Sorry for the confusion.
    Here I am definitely talking EF.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    If it's the EF you can certainly play it during the Canon after the Consecration (as long as the choir isn't singing a Benedictus there).

    Or during the Offertory.
    Or during Communion.
    Or any other time as long as it isn't replacing a proper.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us8icACznL8
    Thanked by 3ClergetKubisz CHGiffen Jes
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I'd never seen that before. I thought it was supposed to be absolute silence during the canon. Thank you for sharing that!
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I'd never seen that before. I thought it was supposed to be absolute silence during the canon. Thank you for sharing that!


    Of course that's only useful if you're ever called upon to provide music for a Papal Mass in the Extraordinary Form,... and if/when that happens we'll be here to make recommendations.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    You should ask this person if they mind if you play a prelude and fugue at the end of mass.
    Thanked by 3CCooze Casavant Organist Jes
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,934
    Here's what *trumpet fanfare* Father Fortescue has to say on the subject:

    6.Elevation to Communion. When the bell has been rung the sixth time, there is again an interval to the 'Pater Noster'. This may be filled by the organ alone; or the choir may sing a Eucharistic hymn or motet. The 'Benedictus' may sometimes be sung during this time. If there is still time, play. - Liber Organi


    Here's the link where I found it if you want to read more: https://charlescole.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/fortescue-gry.pdf
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Are pieces entitled "elevation" purely titled such because they HAVE to be played during the elevation of the host?

    No.
    A liturgical moment requires or permits music.
    Particular moments have a certain character and duration.
    A composer creates a piece to satisfy these and labels the score appropriately.
    Examples:
    Prelude, Interlude, Postlude, Offertory, Elevation, Communion.

    I am organist at an OF parish.
    After the Offertory chant, there is time to play,
    but a French "Offertoire" score might be too bold following the chant,
    and too long for what remains of the actions in the sanctuary,
    so it might be better for me to play the score at Prelude or Postlude time.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Jes SarahJ
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I routinely use such pieces anywhere in or after the mass where they will fit. It doesn't bother me that some preludes make excellent postludes, or that some elevations fit well at offertory. It does seem like the current mass is more compressed, for lack of a better word, and the emphasis is on getting it over with as soon as possible. Much of the "classic" music has to be cut or shortened to make it useable.
    Thanked by 5ClergetKubisz Steve Collins eft94530 Jes SarahJ
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Well, it was played by the organist, during communion.

    No lightning bolt has struck us... Yet...
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,416
    ...struck us...

    I'm pretty sure that you are safe - unless you happen to be in Houston right now.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Well, it was played

    So what was "it" (ie, piece title, composer, etc)?
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Haha no wukkas

    Florian Arresti - elevation doesn't specify what else. All I know is it sounded fine at communion.
    Good piece, he improvised and expanded after finishing the piece so it was really cool actually.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    http://imslp.org/wiki/Elevazione_per_Organo_(Arresti,_Floriano)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Again, you find the neatest things to play. I am not familiar with this composer's works. Do you have any tempo suggestions for this piece?
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    It was jesearle who started this discussion.
    And finally identified the piece.
    I just looked for it.
    I have not yet downloaded it so no tempo ideas from me.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,802
    =60
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    I didn't play it but I'd say like between adagio and andante. So probs between 60 and 70 sort of realm for me personally.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
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