• JesJes
    Posts: 576
    G'day,

    Questions about heritage listed organs overseas from Aus.
    If you have Ivory keys on a heritage listed organ can you change the Ivory to something like ivorine, bone, or wood?
    If so which is most likely to suit a historic organ?

    Ivory is peeling off keys and breaking and cutting my hands!

    Will this make animal lobbyists go up in arms if we get rid of the Ivory which of course some poor elephant has sacrificed?

    Is there much of this sort of dilemma found in other countries?

    What is most commonly found on historic organs?

    GB,
    Jes
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I had cracked and chipped ivory on 4 or 5 keys. Legal ivory is available, or so the console rebuilders told me. They replaced the ivory on those keys. It wasn't cheap, but I expected that. I don't know about extensive key replacement. However, elephants do pass away from natural causes, so I would expect that ivory to be ok to use. Perhaps Dumbo the Flying Elephant would be pleased to be memorialized on a fine instrument. ;-)
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Thanks @CharlesW I've been told the original keys would have been something other than Ivory anyway but I wanna still check out my options.
    I think the legal Ivory might be ivorine, I personally find it doesn't stick for long either and ends up needing care after a while. My preference for this reason is to get wood but I'm unsure if I'm allowed to according to historic protected items in Aus however, if I can argue that overseas this happens I might be in for a chance.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    We are talking cracked Ivory and chips just about across both manuals.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Keep in mind this is in the United States. We don't have historic or heritage protected instruments. They routinely get trashed to humor some picayunish organist who thinks he can't play Bach except on a certain style of instrument.

    I have noticed that some new organs have bone naturals rather than ivory. Whether this is a result of the lack of available ivory or because of cost, I don't know.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    That's fascinating! I wouldn't call Aussie organs historic but there are huge bodies that classify things as historic and heritage listed, I think possibly because Australia is so young.

    We're in a climate that can go anywhere (indoor temperature) between 3-4degrees Celsius 39F and 50degrees Celsius 122F so I'm looking at wood only because I think it will expand with the wood it coats easier than bone or ivorine.

    Ivory is highly illegal, even old Ivory around here so I think we need to get rid of it pretty quick smart but whilst it is attached to a heritage listed instrument we are allowed to keep the Ivory, so only the broken off bits are illegal. It's kinda cray.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    ^^Bureaucracy at its finest.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    We are talking cracked Ivory and chips just about across both manuals.


    Both manuals? Your organ only has two?
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  • I would prefer bone to wood, though either is acceptable.
    My experience with wood is, depending, I suppose, on which wood, that it tends to wear down and sometimes becomes pitted or grooved. This doesn't happen with bone.

    I know that I'm 'preaching to the choir' here, so don't really need to say this, but an organic material such as wood, bone, or ivory makes quite a difference in the bonding one experiences with the keys. Plastic and such are really dead to the touch, whereas organic keys have a feel of life to them that can often enliven one's playing; there is an intelligible excitement in touching the organic, living, substance.
    Thanked by 2Jes advocatus
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    I believe pear wood is a good option.
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  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    @ClergetKubisz yes it sports only 2 manuals and no reeds and 8 stops in total and some very unusual incomplete pedal board shoved in after it was built! But it sings throughout the church and does exactly the job we want it to. Okay, so my organ is smaller than yours, let's not get our measuring tools out, I'm just glad we've still got one. Thanks for being so helpful! :P

    @M. Jackson Osborn not sure if this tag will work, we have pretty good source of maple wood, yeah, my thing against plastic is that the chips are going to hurt way more when they start to happen, that stuff is lethal! Bone looks nice and I love looking at the grain of maple wood, you're right, organic is always superior. Do you really think bone sticks okay? With heat that high and dry we get a lot of issues with glues working, one time the road came apart and stuck to the wheels of people's cars cos it melted so badly. Regardless I think we have to restore it to whatever it is supposed to have if we do restore this part of the instrument, which is something I'm insisting on.

    @francis pear wood? Like wood from a pear tree? This is going to sound so daggy but I had no idea pears grew above ground, (I think I thought they were like potatoes or something) so it sounds like I need to do some more research! Thanks for the hat tip.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    a pear tree? This is going to sound so daggy but I had no idea pears grew above ground,


    I know it happens in the summertime and all, but do you not sing "The Twelve Days of Christmas" down there?
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    The laws regarding the use of ivory, even from already deceased elephants, have recently gotten much stricter, so check that. I was recently involved in a project in which we were discussing the restoration of an old ivory keyboard, and it is quite challenging. Modern organs built in historic styles these days tend to use either wood or cow bone. I know of some that actually use mammoth ivory, which is evidently legal. There is more mammoth ivory lying around than one would think, although it's still expensive.

    If legally obtained ivory is not possible (and I am certainly sensitive to poaching concerns), I would say cow bone would be the best option. I would leave the viable ivory intact, however.

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  • This mention of ivories cracking and chipping is beyond my somewhat extensive experience. While I have now and then seen ivories that had slight chips to their front edges, I've never seen the sort of damage spoken of here. (Not that I am contradicting any of your own experiences!) Ivory is extremely hard, and especially difficult to carve. I have a few ivories from my great grandmother's square piano which, unfortunately, was disassembled in my youth (against my protestations). I have tried to carve crosses and such out of several of them and found that they are quite resistant to any tool that I have. Which makes the intricate ivory carvings I have seen all the more marvelous. If one has chipped ivories on one's keyboard I should wonder at what sort of touch and technique it took to chip them.

    I shouldn't hesitate, if I had ivory keys that had become unglued to have them re-glued, replacing with bone any that were hopelessly broken. That's what I would do.

    And, I must say that conceiving of pears as a sort of pomme-de-terre is one of the cleverest miscalculations that I have heard ever! It's almost as amusing as thinking that potatoes grow on trees.

    Egad! I pity you if your roads melt your tyres! It doesn't even get that hot in Texas, which was said by an early Spanish adventurer to be the place where, assuredly, the devil would live if he lived on earth.
    Thanked by 2Jes CCooze
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    @M.JacksonOsborn yes some sort of accident has occurred prior to my time. This instrument is so desperate for repair that it is almost worth getting a whole new one. The tracker action CONSTANTLY fails with rods crossing all over the place, some even look like they have been chewed on by my dog. I also think whoever installed the Ivory in the first place used extremely thin pieces you can actually see the grain of the wood through some of the pieces. In addition I have reason to believe that someone stood on the keys after leaning a ladder against the organ to repair the roof. (A couple of the finials came off that day too.) when I arrived the church complained that the organ always had cyphers... This was caused by some imbecile kicking a piece of the organ onto the rods of the pedals. It's an absolute joke the state it is in but I know this instrument is a little gem that is worth it. If we didn't use it we'd be using a Barry Morgan 70's synthesiser appliance so I'm very relieved we have this. I've gotta say the state of the organ when I first saw it really took me by surprise, it was even missing stops, so you'd have to open the casing to push out the stop you wanted. I've repaired organs that have come out of earthquakes in better condition than this one. It needs a lot of work. At the moment the organ is being held together with gaffa! It's really quite alarming!

    Haha I dunno bout clever. More embarrassing! When I read pear tree I genuinely thought someone was pulling my leg!

    The roads melt sometimes yeah, tyres would pop before they melted I reckon but tyres here are really good the bitumen kinda sucks so we got some French people in to fix it for us.

    @doneil yes I am absolutely not a fan of Ivory this is why I wonder if we should scrap the lot and what organs historically use. Thanks for your suggestions, I'm adding them to the tally!

    @AdamWood yes, we sing the 12 days of Christmas...
    12 possums playing
    11 kangas hopping
    10 wombats digging
    9 crocs are swimming
    8 dingos dancing
    7 emus laying
    6 platypuses
    5 kangaroos
    4 lyrebirds
    3 pink galahs
    2 snakes on ski's
    And a kookaburra in a gum tree...

    But I looked up the words and can totally understand that pears grow on trees now. Even got a lovely picture to remind me! Hahaha for a minute there I thought you were taking the piss but it is totally obvious in the song and regularly sung too no wonder people think I'm a dingbat!

    There is another version we used to sing at school too the only thing I remember was 5 BBQ's... Very bogan. Never sang the partridge one before. Got no idea what a partridge even is. Mind you, I never understood how snakes could use ski's without having feet to clip into them!
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    http://youtu.be/_uuwlXeKfZo
    Barry Morgan, actually stocks some reasonable house organs. This one is the sort I'm talking about being in my church instead of the pipe organ. So you can see why I want to keep playing the run down instrument.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    We probably don't have enough information to make legitimate recommendations for you as to how to proceed..

    But speaking personally, I have a strong preference for wood keys. They just feel "right" to me.
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  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    It's a German organ from 1880
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I have been listening to some 2010 or so recordings by Siegfried Franke at St. Paul's Cathedral in Melbourne. Fine instrument. Also the Pastór de Lasala recordings on the 1898 Norman & Beard organ at St Patrick's Catholic Cathedral, Parramatta, NSW, Australia sound pretty good. So there are some great organs in Australia that also seem to survive the weather. It sounds like your instrument has been poorly maintained and perhaps even abused.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    But speaking personally, I have a strong preference for wood keys. They just feel "right" to me.


    Wood keys feel odd to me, but I haven't played very many of them. They are unfamiliar. The 60+year old ivory keys on my parish organ are starting to get a bit slippery toward the middle of the Great manual from years of use. I don't know of a fix for that other than keeping them clean and playing carefully. There probably is no such thing as a perfect material for keys.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    another option is boxwood
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  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Cool!
    Yeah St. Paul's is incredible, the soft strings are probably my favourite thing about it.
    Check out the melbourne town hall samples, I used to tune that organ and I can safely say the samples actually sound like the organ in the actual space.

    Smaller churches without proper roofs are sadly the ones that have decrepit organs. Like I said, organs in this condition are so rare and lots of organs have humidity regulators and all those bells and whistles. St. Paul's used to be even more spectacular before they did weird restorations to the roof but it's still very impressive.

    Scots church organ is also really awesome though the reeds are quite close to the players ears. Lots of our best organs contain the most wholesome strings sourced from American organs.

    I love the organ I have, with work it will become one of Australia's small gems and it will sparkle. I only wish I had have finished my apprenticeship so I could restore it myself!

    Yes I believe you're right it has been abused that's why I want to get even the smallest of details correct. The weather conditions don't help but yes this is more than just that. I have replaced too many plastic keys to be turned off them forever.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I looked on YouTube and now know who Barry Morgan is. Ethel Smith on steroids. Maybe a little Liberace thrown in. Good grief! LOL.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • BGP
    Posts: 219
    At the risk of ridicule, I'll tip my hand and reveal that my other musical interest is piping. These instruments (older ones) are often decorated with ivory. Yes, in the US, I don't know about other countries, ivory laws which were already stringent recently became more restrictive. People I know with ivory on their instruments will not risk (even with the proper paperwork) traveling outside the country with their instruments, It's just not worth the risk of having your 150 year old instrument confiscated upon reentry.

    Legal Ivory, until recently, was mainly reclaimed (old billiard balls and such) as well as ancient mammoth ivory, I may be wrong but I think that is no longer permitted here.

    Imitation ivories are polymers. Popular alternatives are, moose antler, various woods (fruitwoods, holly, boxwood) and vegetable ivory's (parts of palm nut seeds). On pipes these are merely decorative of course. It would seem to me that bone would be possible to cover keys, I would think that large flats could be gotten from bovine femurs.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Jes
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    @BGP
    That's really useful thanks! Cool instruments to build! No ridicule permitted on this thread, I think you're cool. Do you know if any people try to get rid of their intact Ivory pieces as well as broken pieces?

    I guess the reason why I'm leaning towards wood is because of the shape and texture of the sharps and flats which are made with a wood surface. I think wood breaths more and expands more naturally at the same rate as other wooden surfaces.

    @CharlesW I really like Barry Morgan, he is a great supporter of young organists around the country, and well, maybe our taste in music slightly differs but I have to admit he knows a heck of a lot of stuff including how to be that funny quirky character with musical taste that a few share. His website for his shop is just filled with his mirth.

    A couple of people PM'd me about our weather? Melbourne city will hail, be 30 degrees Celsius followed by 8 degrees, really sunny, rain, thunder, londonesque cloud, hot rain, windy, still and all in the same day and on any day in any season. It's very normal and not generally a problem though some instruments of certain wood without humidity regulators do feel the toll especially the organs that are designed for other climate or have been shunted around more than your aunties slippers. More rural areas however have more extreme temperatures and more extreme storms, flooding and bushfires etc. we don't get many cyclones or hurricanes or anything terrifying like that, we admire how people get through those devastations with such dignity. We think your weather is strange too. Our best organs and best buildings are the result of the gold rush either that or I have a bias towards a particular era. (Which is highly likely.)
    How this affects an organist?
    If using public transport during a hot patch of day the rails might have expanded and then multiple cancellations are called.
    Hail stones might damage the church roof.
    Possums love to hide from the rain inside pipe organs.
    When preparing for multiple masses in the day (let's say dawn, day and evening) you'll need to have an umbrella, a jumper, a short sleeve top and a wide brimmed hat handy (easily placed in the boot of a car.)
    A bottle of glue is handy because in summer anything glued is prone to needing reapplication of something sticky.
    A blowtorch is also handy because you can melt shellac from where wooden keys have expanded more than plastic causing the plastic to come off.
    Be prepared to tune organ and still have an out of tune organ the next day because the temperature and humidity changed 4-5 times overnight.
    Enjoy the variety? Yeah I do, I love it!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I don't think I could cope with such weather extremes. We maintain minimum and maximum temperatures in the church year round to prevent costly organ repairs. In our climate, nearly all the good-sized churches do the same.
  • BGP
    Posts: 219
    jesearle- Thanks, I didn't really expect to be ridiculed, but some people really, really hate bagpipes: myself... I'm a drone head, bagpipes, hurdy gurdys and Byzantine Chant are awesome as far as I'm concerned.
    Basically If your lucky enough to own a vintage instrument you don't want to mess with anything that doesn't need fixing, it's also expensive to have mounts turned off and replaced. I'm not sure what people are doing, I do know a pipe maker and can ask next time I see him if you like? The changes in the law are problem for repair of broken parts as well. The maker I know is a big fan of moose antler... It's similar and beautiful but it really doesn't look like ivory, it has grey and purple patterns swirled throughout the material.

    Those who want to travel to Canada or Scotland to compete are buying or borrowing ivory free instruments. I'm not up on all the laws as it's not an issue for me, there's more information here if your interested http://www.thebagpipeplace.com/bagpipes-ivory/ I fail to see how these newer laws are going to make one iota of difference when it comes to protecting elephants.

    Anyway, yeah I think wood is probably your best bet, with less delamination due to expansion/contraction, provided it complies with your historic conservation requirements.
    Thanked by 2Jes CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    People I know with ivory on their instruments will not risk (even with the proper paperwork) traveling outside the country with their instruments, It's just not worth the risk of having your 150 year old instrument confiscated upon reentry.


    This has happened with bamboo flutes, because importing bamboo is apparently illegal, and customs agents are stupid.

    I can't imagine being a international touring musician right now -- especially a non-white one.
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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Well, it's not just customs agents: it's nanny-states in general, but that's not the topic of this thread.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    I am an ivory musician!
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    @BGP Byzantine chant :)
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @Jesearle: I'm glad you've got an organ as well, especially if it sports real pipes! The organ at the church where I was is a 3 manual Wicks with 40 speaking stops. I'm moving to a new school next year, and the organ there is a 2 manual Schantz, maintained by the famous Goulding and Wood company in nearby Indianapolis. Keep playing, no matter how many manuals you've got! (I once played a one manual tracker organ in Carmel, Indiana, which aside from some tuning issues sounded very good).
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • ...especially if it sports real pipes!...

    Um, rather than saying what I might be moved to say, I think that I'll just let everybody imagine it.