Cantor/choir HELP!
  • From a young music director who just graduated from college last May and has had this job for not quite ten months...

    I am seeking to develop my cantor program. I have a handful of very dedicated cantors, all of whom participate in either choir or our parish contemporary ensemble. I am currently meeting with my cantors individually to practice their materials and giving them pointers on expression and the like. When I first started last year I was offering them tips on vocal technique too (I have a Bachelor's Degree in Vocal Performance), but it didn't seem to be helping much and in some cases confused them, I think, so I stopped giving feedback on technique unless they asked me for it. The previous music director at this parish gave free private voice lessons to choir members and held regular sectional rehearsals as well. I'm not sure how to handle the situation. Should I give the extra time during the summer to offer voice lessons to the cantors? I want to improve the program as best I am able, but frankly I don't have much to work with. Most of my cantors are not musically gifted and other than be as encouraging as I possibly can, I don't know how to help them.

    (On a side note: Any tips for dealing with very squeezed/pressed phonation? One of my cantors has so much tension in her throat that she struggles to stay on pitch. I have talked to her about relaxing but, again, my words don't seem to help much...)

    As I mentioned above, the previous music director had regular sectional rehearsals and 3-hour full choir rehearsals, on a weekly basis. I do not have that much time to give on a weekly basis solely to my choir, but of course I want them to develop as musicians and I want the choir to grow. My predecessor used Solfege syllables and was attempting to teach the choir to read music. I have done some research on this topic and would appreciate input from other, more experienced church music directors than myself. Can a music director feasibly teach a volunteer church choir to read music? My choir has a handful of decent singers who can read music to an extent, but several of them either can't read it, are so quiet that you can't hear them sing their part anyway, or often don't show up for practice. My procedure to teaching them up to this point has been holding sectional rehearsals when needed, making recordings of their parts and sending them via e-mail, and holding regular weekly rehearsals with the full choir, but even with what I feel are my best efforts, several of them struggle and sing nowhere near what is written in the music. I am willing to invest the time this summer to hold a week-long intensive "choir camp" before they come back for the season, and work with them in Solfege to try to help them read music, but am I beating a dead horse? I know church choir skill levels can be all over the place. I used to be a paid section leader in a church choir that would study challenging rep and special octavos for almost every Sunday of the church year. On the other hand, I know that this is not typical of most church choirs. I want my choir to grow and learn, but I want to be realistic, too. Any ideas, comments, or feedback?

    If you're still reading, thank you for taking the time to sift through my post. I know it's a long one. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!
    Thanked by 1SarahJ
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Any tips for dealing with very squeezed/pressed phonation?


    You could try asking her to overcompensate in the other direction, asking her to aim for a very loose phonation. This could be accomplished by asking her to begin a series of exercises with an audible [ h ] to get the breath moving without the vocal folds squeezed tightly shut. Simply asking her to sing "breathy" could be a technique, also. Playing her a recording of someone who sings in a hypofunctional way and asking her to try to imitate it is something else to try.

    Most amateur singers who attempt to do what you ask will only go about one small step out of their comfort zone. In this case, that might be just one small step away from pressed, tight, hyperfunctional singing, toward a more balanced approach, which would almost certainly be an improvement!
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    My cello teacher once said "We're always being told to strive for relaxation, but if you ever actually achieve it you find you're about as useful as a beached jellyfish". Laughter is a step towards an alert and fluid use of energy; all my choirs hear about the conducting handbook that earnestly states the importance of warming up by rotating the shoulders clockwise first, then counterclockwise.

    holding sectional rehearsals when needed
    the best time of all to focus on solfege! You sound like you might already have read John Bertelot's handbooks but if not you'll get a lot of enjoyment as well as tips from them.
  • Sung, it becomes a non-responsorial psalm.

    Spoken, it dramatically raises the level of musicianship at Mass to a much higher degree - even if no one sings at all.

    The human voice of natural beauty is no longer a valuable commodity at Mass and organists, too, of talent go elsewhere.

    When anyone can sing the psalm they will, no matter how badly.

    Focusing only on the choir is your job. A cantor who cannot sing and cannot read music should not be your concern.

    Welcome to the forum!
    Thanked by 2canadash Music_Miss
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Noel has a point: there's only so much you can do, and at some point it's up to the individual singer to either take your advice or not. You probably already know this, but working with soloists (or singers with the "soloist" mentality, as cantors really shouldn't be true soloists) who aren't ready to give up their bad habits is frustratingly difficult. When I was a DM, I had a cantor who would constantly bend and scoop in a quasi-country style of singing, and she thought is was beautiful and "expressive." In this case, the singer already thinks she's doing a great job, and others are supporting the practice (i.e. "the people" seem to like it), so why should she stop?

    You probably already know this also, but you'll see the gamut of vocal defects when working with church musicians: from throaty singing, to inappropriate scooping and bending, to the most whiny and nasal sounds you've ever heard. However, whatever you choose to do to correct the situation(s), Noel's point still remains: at some point, there's nothing else you can do.

    Irishtenor has degrees in voice as well, so I would hold his advice in high regard.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I have a very similar situation to yours. I've gotten rid of the cantors at the choir Mass. Our choir sings the responsorial psalm and we chant the verses, kind of like the Anglican Church, but simpler. I think it is much better this way.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I reached the conclusion some years ago that I have choir members who can't sing. I am unable to get rid of them for political reasons, since some have been in that choir 30 years or more. And really, I have no one to replace them with. I suppose I should be grateful they show up since singing doesn't seem to be much of a priority with folks today.

    Mrs. Diva comes in either late or nearly so on Sunday morning. Then she has to find her music, and greet all the other people in her section. She once studied with someone prominent, but hasn't practiced much in years and is living on past achievements. I have not played a postlude in years without hearing her voice over the organ telling anyone who will listen the latest drama in her life - and there is always drama! She could sing better if she worked at it a bit more.

    Mr. Bass can barely get up the loft stairs anymore which makes him often late, as well. His hearing is shot which puts it in agreement with his voice. Imagine a gravelly texture that either sings the wrong note, or the right note at the wrong time. I don't have enough basses to drown him out, since I only have three to begin with. Only one of them can actually sing.

    I have a couple of "singers" that I suspect are somewhat tone deaf. However, the tenors are actually pretty good and a some of the sopranos sing well. The altos are not bad, just too few in number.

    Some have referred to them as the "Alzheimer's choir," since a number of them forget everything between Wednesday rehearsal and Sunday morning.

    I have pointed out to the parish hierarchy that money to hire singers could greatly improve the singing. Other than that, there is not much I can do except laugh about it.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Any tips for dealing with very squeezed/pressed phonation?


    Liberal quantities of internally-administered alcohol. Black Jack is good, vodka suffices.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Music_Miss
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I thought organists and choristers were all about fine London Dry Gin.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    My suggestion is that you give advance notice (preferably 4-6 weeks) of the planned repertoire, have one rehearsal during the week (1.5-2hrs) and 1 rehearsal/warm-up before the main Sunday mass (about 1 hr) and make it clear that you expect the choristers to look over the music in advance, and if necessary, note-bash on a keyboard or listen to youtube recordings.

    I have a very small "choir" (usually just a few men) and I give them the music list at least a week before hand, and they all go off and look over the music. We have a 30-min session before mass where we run one or two verses of each hymn, and any new music (like the Regina Caeli for the pre-6pm mass Angelus During Easter) and then run with it from there.
  • Thank you all for your input. I actually worked with the cantor who struggles with pressed phonation yesterday evening, and I had her sing her Alleluia on "ha," which resulted in an immediate difference. She said it was much easier and more comfortable to sing that way. When we replaced the "ha" with the words she was able to keep most of that relaxed, open throat sensation that she needs. Thanks for the advice -- I wasn't expecting it to work so quickly!

    Just FYI I had also had rehearsal with my choir last night and it went very well! Tried to focus on the positive and on praising the choir for the good things they did instead of giving in to my sense of perfectionism. Spirits were up and we made some good progress -- still had to beat out a lot of notes though. I have some good ideas about where to go with them at the end of this summer and the start of our next season!

    Thanks also for reminding me that past a certain point, there's nothing I can do. As a perfectionist I tend to place blame on myself when everything doesn't go...well, perfectly, so it's refreshing to hear that others with more experience also deal with essentially the same thing. :)
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    still had to beat out a lot of notes though.


    In many situations, this is the best, most efficient solution. Academically, it's faux pas, since choirs should be learning to sight sing and use solfeggio. The DM at our church actually told me that a voice professor of his told him not to teach sight singing to a volunteer church choir (the professor is also a DM, but in a Protestant church), but to focus on the experience of singing the music, and reminded him to always pray with the choir.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Music_Miss
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    CK, I think a blend of the two is good. If the position allows, I think it's best to plunk (after the first couple rehearsals) in a "mini-rehearsal", but yes, no beating dead horses. If it helps people to plunk, do it. That said, you have to take note of the plunkers, because they're going to be the people that struggle with legato and general expression, too, in my experience.
    Thanked by 1Music_Miss
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    There is an iPhone app (I don't know if it's available for Android) called Voice Tutor. I think it is pretty good. It could help.
    Thanked by 1Music_Miss
  • Music_Miss,

    Welcome to the forum.

    If the problem is that the sound is too close to the hard palate (which it would be if the tone is that narrow) there are several exercises you can use. Yawning (as a vocal exercise) can lead to real yawning, but it makes the point. Asking the cantor to imagine she's coming down from altitude might be too confusing, but the point is to open the back of the throat. Encourage the cantor to pull the lower jaw back, too, since this will accomplish the same thing. I suppose (as a last resort) you could ask her to speak *(and then sing) as if she's an English prim-and-proper lady.
    Thanked by 1Music_Miss
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    with regard to over all time management, it can be useful to identify what level of commitment people have, and if necessary set up different group within the choir who can do different things - ie musically accomplished enough to produce a polished sounding piece of polyphony, decent singer but can't read music etc etc etc. when you have a clear idea of the capabilities and commitment level of the choir members, you can devise a strategy to get the best from the choir, and move them forward according to what they are capable of , and willing to work at.
    From my point of view, teaching the choir to read music competently is time wisely invested, and at some point it can become the standard for auditioning new members. (Those who would like to join but cant read must then attend training of some sort, so not saying no to them, but yes, after this....)
    It is necessary to develop the expectation that everyone is welcome. but not everyone can do everything, so your somewhat tuneless volunteer is welcome to sing the simpler hymns etc, but will be sitting out the complex piece that a smaller group have worked on. If good singers who work are not given enough to stretch them , they may go elsewhere, at the same time demanding too much of someone who sees their commitment as small, may cause frustration for you and them.
    Develop realistic expectations, communicate your expectations simply and frequently. Be encouraging, and willing to do more for those who are willing to work a bit harder. If someone does not give the commitment but expects to be asked to do the extras, make sure you communicate clearly that it is their choice - if they fulfill the requirements , do the work, etc they can do more.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    It's possible for communication to get confused even face to face. A colleague of mine has a story about his "aha" moment: after several years with a teacher, he said "I just got it: you don't mean the yawn, you mean the pre-yawn, before everything goes sprong!"
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Any tips for dealing with very squeezed/pressed phonation?

    Get this person to do anything along with their singing.
    Standing on one leg (one cm off the floor).
    Bending knees on a particular note (recurrent is best)
    Sitting and standing on words that start with a certain letter.
    Obviously looks weird if they were to do that at the lectern... so this is rehearsal only.
    My singing student didn't think about trying to hit the high notes when I made him do all these ridiculous things and it made him feel better knowing that he didn't need to do much.

    I'd check out the straw method. Bone prop. Holding tongue outside of mouth whilst singing. I think it's Estill and Titze that influence me most with this.
    If not using enough air for high notes then get them to V, SH, Z, S, F the song.

    I think sometimes people just look at music or listen to it and freak out about the high notes or low notes and taking the thinking about the notes away to do something else might just work... let me know how you go I'm curious.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    If you want your choir to sightsing.

    Get onto Tomasz Spiewak's aural and sightsinging training methods. They are great. But you'll have to use solfege to make them work.
  • @ClergetKubisz and @BruceL,

    Thank you for your feedback. Yes, I agree that a mix is probably the best way to handle the "plunking" vs. "musical" issue. Simply because of the makeup of my choir, I'm sure that not everyone in the choir will become musically adept enough to just sit down and sight-sing a piece, even if we spend time working on reading music... I know that ability takes years of training. By the same token, I believe I do need to offer something to challenge the choir, especially those who do read music or who can plunk out their parts on the piano at least. CK, I agree with your church's DM's voice professor that a director should focus on the choir's experience of singing the music rather than worrying about making them a top-notch performing ensemble. It's just that I think the constant note-plunking that tends to happen at my choir rehearsals, in spite of sectionals and audio recordings, does detract from the overall experience for the choir. I know at least one member who is somewhat ashamed that he can't read music, and I'd like to do something to at least set him on his way. I'll try solfege with them for a week this summer right before we start up again in the Fall, but I'll also keep in mind that a certain degree of "plunking" will probably always be in the choir's future.

    Going off the music reading/solfege issue, has anyone ever tried teaching their choirs the notes on the staff? Sometimes I'll be in the middle of a rehearsal and refer to a note as "that F" for instance, then I realize that probably most of the choir doesn't know which note that is out of the several they see on the staff, so I have to describe it in a different way. How many of your church choirs can recognize the notes on the staff? Is it common or uncommon?

    @bonniebede: Thank you for your idea of creating categories for my choir members based on their commitment level. I am actually blessed with a very dedicated choir...in fact, I think if I tried that with them and told them that only those who put in the extra work would be able to sing the more challenging pieces, everyone would show up for the extra practices. I have seen over the almost 10 months that I have been here that two of the less dedicated folks have dropped out for one reason or another. It is no great loss to the choir and I think it's helpful to have weeded out the truly committed people from those who don't really care.

    Actually, the only real commitment issue I'm seeing as of yet is people who don't show up on time. The other day I only had 4 or 5 people there at the start of practice time. Everyone else filters in about 5-10 minutes late. This past choir rehearsal attendance was more timely, but usually I have to wait to start practice until at least 5 minutes after it's supposed to have started. The same thing happens with our brief rehearsal before 8:00 Mass on Sunday. I tell them call time is 7:30 and often only two or three of them are actually there by that time. I have talked to them about the importance of timeliness before and that being late is unfair to those who do come on time, but I'm still having this problem. I hate to make a huge issue out of it because I know some people are just chronically late, 8:00 Mass is early, and I don't want to alienate my choir members over it, but it is still disappointing. I also get people who miss practices because of birthday parties, cast parties, sickness, etc. I try to be very understanding but I don't think a birthday party or a week-old cold is a very good reason to miss practice. To an extent I feel that they will do whatever they want to do whether they have my approval or not, so again, I try not to make a big deal out of it, but I would appreciate any words of wisdom from you all on how to deal with this issue as well, if you don't mind.

    Thanks again to everyone for their helpful suggestions! So good to know there is a support group out there!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Elmar
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Going off the music reading/solfege issue, has anyone ever tried teaching their choirs the notes on the staff? Sometimes I'll be in the middle of a rehearsal and refer to a note as "that F" for instance, then I realize that probably most of the choir doesn't know which note that is out of the several they see on the staff, so I have to describe it in a different way. How many of your church choirs can recognize the notes on the staff? Is it common or uncommon?

    Yes! I do this! I basically use solfege but instead of singing do, re, mi. I use the letters of the stave. It works great with people I teach from scratch. Second hand choristers however often rely on their ear a lot more which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
    I like to try and describe the note or explain it using the syllable of the word the note belongs to. Anybody really interested will retain that information over time but it won't develop sightsinging.
    Spiewak's books are really good for fixing that. Mark o Leary also has some great warm up reading resources, if you started your every rehearsal with 5 minutes of that you'd get them reading basic notation in a year or two I reckon.

    As for showing up on time... Try a reward system. Small chocolates?
    I use a ribbon system whereby if you turn up (on time) to 7 rehearsals you get a coloured ribbon. Next 7 times you get another ribbon of different colour and first to get to the gold ribbon gets a free restaurant dinner.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Going off the music reading/solfege issue, has anyone ever tried teaching their choirs the notes on the staff? Sometimes I'll be in the middle of a rehearsal and refer to a note as "that F" for instance, then I realize that probably most of the choir doesn't know which note that is out of the several they see on the staff, so I have to describe it in a different way. How many of your church choirs can recognize the notes on the staff? Is it common or uncommon?


    Yes, I absolutely teach solfeggio with whatever chorus I am working. I also do as much as I can to explain the ins and outs of what we're doing as they come up. It certainly does not take the form of any kind of organized lessons or anything like that (my background is music education), but when things come up, I try to explain them and impart some understanding. Over the course of working with me, my choir did learn to recognize the notes on the staff, but they were never strong sight-singers. Many untrained singers that I've encountered have become dependent on the accompaniment to provide them with pitch support, which necessitates the "plunking," and makes the teaching of sight-singing and solfeggio much more difficult: you have to first break them of their dependence on the accompaniment to spoon feed them their notes, then you can begin training the ears. It's also why doing exactly that, although it may be precisely what they need in terms of vocal development and ear training, is many times not advised, and focus on the experience of singing the music is paramount.

    Edit: "Follow the dots" was a phrase that I used frequently. This helped in terms of getting the singers to follow the musical line in addition to the text.
    Thanked by 2Jes Music_Miss
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    Further to the following the dots that @ClergetKubisz said... I recommend pointing out things like word painting so that people can see a link between the dots and the text, it might be an aural link or a visual link and both are good for sightsinging skill development.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    ...usually I have to wait to start practice until at least 5 minutes after it's supposed to have started.
    I'm sure in their minds they're not late since things haven't started yet. How do those waiting with you feel about having arrived on time?
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Richard makes a good point: always start on time, even if that means that you are starting without some (or even a majority of) your singers. This will show a couple of things to the people that are consistently late: 1. Rehearsal begins at the appointed time, not when you feel like showing up; 2. We will start without you if you're not here.

    Now, I'm not necessarily implying that everyone who shows up late consistently is doing so because they value their own time more than the choir's (although sometimes, that is exactly the case, or they think that they are so indispensable that it doesn't matter when they show up, you're going to wait for them). Sometimes, people have legitimate reasons for being consistently late, such as their work schedule does not allow them to leave in time for them to punctually arrive at rehearsal. You'd have to evaluate everyone's situation on an individual basis.

    Back to the original statement:

    Starting rehearsal promptly will have the following effects:

    1. For those that have arrived on time, it shows them that you value their time.

    2. For those that did not arrive on time, it shows them that you will be starting when you said you would, which is also important because:

    3. It shows everyone that you will keep your word, even down to the time things should start.

    This is probably going to be controversial here, but I think the following is also important:

    Have rules for maintaining decorum while the rehearsal is in session. The last thing you need is people interrupting you by blurting out their questions, or trying to jockey with each other for whose needs should be addressed immediately. I've had experience with this, and I really wish that I had established rules and procedures for choir rehearsal, because I had several members do exactly what I described: just shouting out questions, demanding to repeat particular sections immediately (completely ignoring whatever comments I might have had, even to the point of addressing the accompanist directly, which I find disrespectful), and even shouting each other down to make sure that their needs are addressed first. Of course, this created a completely chaotic environment at times, and rehearsals were much more peaceful and productive without certain people present. If I had to do the job again somewhere else, I would establish rules for choir rehearsal from the beginning. Such as:

    1. Follow instructions the first time they are given.

    2. No talking unless you are asking a question. (See rule 3)

    3. Raise your hand and wait to be called on if you would like to ask a question.

    4. Be ready to begin rehearsal on time.

    It may seem juvenile to do this, but I've seen an unregulated environment turn into a petty free-for-all, which is neither appropriate for the church environment, nor becoming of mature adults (or adults that are supposed to be mature), nor becoming of those who are serving the altar of God. Always begin and end with prayer. It centers everyone very well.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    FWIW I learned sight reading in a one week course with a totally idiosyncratic Hungarian, see this (fixed I think)
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    @a_f_hawkins , can you check if that link is working? From here, the site appears to be under construction.
    [Update: it's fixed now!]
  • Wow, thank you so much for all of your very helpful comments! Looking forward to putting these into practice.

    @ClergetKubisz, thank you for your explanation of why teaching sight-singing might be an impossible task. You did mention that you teach solfege to your choruses, so are you saying that solfege will help them to become more musically literate but will probably not teach them to sight-sing? If so, that makes perfect sense to me. I don't really expect them to sight-sing anyway, but musical literacy would be a tremendous help. I will plan on introducing solfege at our next practice. Thank you also for your very organized list of helpful tips for keeping order at rehearsals. We're almost done for the season, but starting this week I will be starting practices on time and eventually they'll realize they're missing material when they come late. Yes, one person comes straight from work and I have no problem whatsoever when he is late because I know he can't help it.

    Again, thanks to ALL of you for your extremely helpful feedback! I greatly appreciate it!!! God bless all of you for taking the time to respond with thoughtful comments.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • @jesearle:
    I'd check out the straw method. Bone prop. Holding tongue outside of mouth whilst singing. I think it's Estill and Titze that influence me most with this.


    I assume by the "straw method" you mean breathing through a straw to lift the soft palate, but could you tell me what "bone prop" is? I don't believe I've ever heard of an exercise by that name. Thanks!
  • @chonak,

    I just tried the link and it worked for me! Hopefully everyone can access it now. :) Thanks @a_f_hawkins for sharing.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    @Music_Miss

    Titze founded the straw method which is about using air efficiently. You basically sing through the straw.

    The bone prop method came from when people put a bone between their front top and bottom teeth to sing.

    Nowadays we do this using our thumb and pointer finger. It think it's another titze trick. Check him out, he's a fantastic vocal scientist.
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