Slandering the Irish?
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    I will be playing for a wedding in a couple of weeks, and after receiving a draft of the order of service from the couple I replied, querying the fact that two of the hymns were not in our hymn book, nor were they printed in the booklet.
    I got the following reply from the couple, who are both Irish:

    We weren't actually planning on giving out hymn books as we had hoped that the singing would be done purely by the choir as is typical in an Irish mass. We could print them out separately and hand them out alongside the mass booklet if you think they will be needed.

    I'm English not Irish, though based in Scotland, and I wasn't aware that Irish congregations NEVER sing, though I had read something to that effect in Thomas Day's book. Actually I hadn't believed it was quite as bad as he made out, but maybe it is.
    Has anyone any experience of this? Would you recommend giving out hymnbooks and encouraging people to sing (the hymns are pretty well known) or do we just leave it to the choir?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I'd do exactly what the bride and groom expected. They are used to a choir singing and that's what they expect.

    Especially for a wedding which, like a funeral, will undoubtedly include many people of other faiths and who be confused enough without being expected to stand up and sing music they probably don't know.

    I hope that this helps...
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    I’m just saddened that this is the case and moreover, they will impose it on other people...
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Their comment also may be ritual-Mass-specific: given that Nuptial Masses are often dominated by attendees who are *not* from the local parish, and are likely to be more "mixed" than a typical Sunday Mass, in Ireland it may be quite common for congregations at such Masses to expect a choir to do the singing, as it were.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Sounds like culture shock. :)
    I'd concur with Noel's take on this- 100%.
    The only slander I could possibly see is trying to think the Irish should follow English customs. I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Just tell them to sing the hymns heartily, like protestants.

    Trust me, there's no way it could go wrong. < \ purplebold >
    Thanked by 2Casavant Organist Kathy
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    H'm. As an expat English person living north of the border I have learned to keep my head down rather than try and impose anything.......
    Actually Scottish Catholics aren't renowned for singing either, but the Church of Scotland folk sing their hearts out; even high pitched hymns as in their hymnbook, or unfamiliar tunes don't put them off. It occurred to me that as this wedding is taking place in Scotland there will probably be many Church of Scotland people among the guests who will be expecting to sing and would do so given the chance. (having said that the hymns chosen include Eagle's Wings and As I kneel before you, so I don't think the C of S folk would be joining in those.....)
    The choir, by the way, = 4 people plus a soloist drafted in to sing Ave Maria at the signing of the register. The church is a former seminary chapel, founded in 1829, out in the sticks and now with only a tiny congregation and no resident choir or regular organist, but because of its beauty and picturesque surroundings it is in demand for weddings.
    At the end of the day it's the couple's decision, I guess. At least it will give plenty of opportunity for the splendid organ to be heard.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Trust me, there's no way it could go wrong. < \ purple bold >

    Now, THAT's funny!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    My recollection of the chapel at Scalan, in the parish of Tomintoul 40 miles to the west of Blairs, is that 40 years ago the congregation had no more problem singing than in England. Scalan was the seminary two before Blairs, and closed (as a seminary) in 1799. At that time Tomintoul had its own, cyclostyled, hymn book.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    So many things to say.
    Such a little combox.
    AAAARgh.
    Go with the presumption that most won't sing.
    Until they have a few at the reception.
    Very few Irish go to church at all. Very few churches have music. Very few at those few churches sing anyway.
    I probably know most of the people who sing in the congregation in Ireland. I didn't hear any of them were going to a wedding soooo....
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    It seems to me (ahem), gathering from what some have said on this forum, that the low mass syndrome and studiedly shut-mouthed worshipers are our 'gift' from the Irish. If there is any truth to this I should rather have English custom imposed than Irish. Of course, throwing that word 'imposition' around seems automatically to imply that there is an inherent negativity to what is being 'imposed', whereas if there were any respect for it as a positive influence one wouldn't refer to it as 'imposed'. Too, I think that gorgeous high mass (in whatever language) and open-mouthed worshipers is as much an 'imposition' of German and Benedictine (and, perhaps, some others) heritage as it is of Anglicanism. Further, I see scant (as in almost nil) evidence of any danger of English or Anglican ways being 'imposed' on American Catholicism; though, if there were, or had there been, we would not be in the liturgical morass in which we find ourselves - an almost total liturgical and musical negative that really was imposed.)
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  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Irish Catholicism developed its approach to the Mass during a time of persecution. Others developed theirs during more flourishing times. Think about what you see coming down the road. Which tradition will your children need most?

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  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Interpretative key - green is the Irish for purple.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Fear not, if there's one way to ensure that Irish (and Irish-Americans) don't sing at Mass, it's to tell them that it's English custom. (When I think of Boston's Irish Catholic culture and dogged practical attachment to liturgical minimalism, I see the great wisdom of Theodore Marier's apparently deliberate approach in *not* expressly invoking the English model but instead carefully drawing on the less obvious (at least to Americans who were/are clueless) models across the English Channel.)
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    .
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    It's really not a national matter in any nation.
    Rather it's all caused by attending a church in which people are not attracted to singing by the people in charge, people who fail to do the basic things it takes to make people want to sing...including not having carpeting in the church, not hiring or training an organist to be competent playing hymns, not buying an organ and using a piano instead, not hiring trained-in-Catholic Music director of music, not having a children's choir...

    And this is not helped by people fighting here against digital organs when almost half of the catholic job openings expect applicants to be able to play piano in churches that don't even bother to buy an organ.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Interpretative key - green is the Irish for purple.


    I thought the green was for all the St. Patrick's day beer. ;-)
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    And this is not helped by people fighting here against digital organs when almost half of the catholic job openings expect applicants to be able to play piano in churches that don't even bother to buy an organ.


    A digital organ is better than no organ. While playing the digital, take the pastor and DM around to churches with pipe instruments and start a movement to get a pipe instrument in the future.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Could it possibly be that, in general, most commentary herein tends to be against "stuff I don't like" oft guised with silver-tongued eloquence? Perish the thought.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
    I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot swede, either.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Let me tell ya, the Lithuanians have the market cornered on Polish jokes.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    That makes sense, bonniebede. It happened in Scotland as well, where after the Reformation until Catholic Emancipation in 1828 there were some extremely stringent anti-Catholic laws on the statute book. People worshipped in secret, often in the middle of the night, so singing was a non-starter. Not to mention England itself; witness the 40 martyrs of England and Wales and many others, unrecorded.
    Actually, now having had a close look at the leaflet for this wedding, there really isn't much for anyone to sing except the two modern hymns I mentioned, so probably no big deal for the little choir to sing these on their own. Pity though, because the church is large, with a good acoustic, and on the rare occasions when there is a full congregation singing well (as at a Christmas carol service last year) the effect is very uplifting.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Mayhaps, to an extent, Liam. But don't forget the Ukies (Ukrainians) who have their own corner on Polish jokes. Did I mention that "ten foot swede" thing is more characteristic of this region's Sven & Ole type of jokes & stories? You betcha, dontcha know!
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  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    silver-tongued eloquence
    Thanked by 2melofluent bhcordova
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Well, when you need something done, I suppose you have to have a blank Czech.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Chuck

    Yes, that's the southeastern corner, as it were. And I would imagine the Ukies had (very dark) Lithuanian jokes from the time before they got moved into the Polish part of the Commonwealth.
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    '...silver tongued...'
    I seem to have noticed here and elsewhere that it doesn't take a silver tongue to wail against 'stuff I don't like'. In fact, it seems that most any tongue may be caught doing this, precious metal or base. Nor, I think, does a silver tongue (whoever might have one!) automatically reduce its subject matter to mere 'stuff I don't like' status. Do we attend to substance?... or to how it's couched?... to determine the worth of what is writ.

    And while we're at it, lets not get carried away with the tired and unprovable propostition that an organ simulacrum is better than none at all (which is debatable [what's wrong with a capella?]). Or 'better than a bad organ' (which it isn't, and: whatever is meant by a 'bad organ' other than 'I don't like it because...'). Why is it that in discussions about simulacra we routinely have the utterly irrelevant 'bad organ' epithet tossed in? There may, I must admit, be some situations in which nothing else is possible. But a 'temporary' one, to be replaced by an organ later on? Um, how long is temporary? How many 'temporaries' are still 'temporary' five, ten, fifteen, or more years on? I don't get too disturbed about people who get organ simulacra because they really do seem to be the only thing feasible for them. I do get disturbed, and mightily so, against those who suggest that they are as good as an organ because they are diiidgital! and technolahhhgical!, plus!: 'they sound just like one'. (They don't. They can't. The laws of physics and tone source categorically forbid it - as in assure it to be objectively impossible.) We have a terrible time in our day and time with intellectual honesty and truth in labeling. This affects everything from whether a human foetus is a human child or an inconvenient blob of tissue, to whether a product with a mere 2% of 'dairy product' is 'ice cream', to whether a bundle of wires, 'tone samples', and digital circuitry plugged into a synthesiser keyboard and fifty (fifty! how impressive!!!) speakers is an organ. That very few of us are laughing doesn't bode well for the future of homo sapiens - who, technology or not, maybe even due to technology, is fast becoming homo ignorans.

    If, though, it's any consolation to our dear friend bonniebede, this can't be blamed on the Irish, who are/were the topic of this thread.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    This is a strange thread.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Um, Jackson, I was self-referring. Purple prose bold clear. If I had a dollar for every time I've been hammered as loquacious...superfluous....hyperbolic.....well I'd hurry retirement.
    I forgot verbose;-)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Um, Charles -
    Self-referring or not, silver-tongued verbositousness is not necessarily self-negating. I, for one, enjoy your verbosity - when you are spot on - and when you're a little bit spot off.
    No purple, Irish or American is needful.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    This is a...

    This isn't the only one!
    We seem to excell at them.
    Many-faceted conversations are often highly interesting and stimulating - when they aren't incoherent totally.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen bonniebede
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    When I referred to digital organs as temporary on the way to something better, I wasn't being unrealistic. Musicians should have longer range goals in sight. I have thought that the reason things don't improve or change in certain parishes is because they have a revolving door with staff. No one stays long enough to implement any kind of vision or planning. It is all a case of, "I am here for now so let's make the most of it." Priests are no better since in some dioceses, they don't stay in one place very long, either. It takes a long-term commitment on the part of staff and clergy to turn a parish around.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen irishtenor
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 411
    Well this thread certainly has digressed a bit from what I expected when I started it, but I suppose this is part of the charm of this forum. I think I've found my answer in there somewhere, and plenty of other things as well.

    Thanks!
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn Liam CHGiffen bonniebede
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    I have visited a couple of parishes in a city in the west of Ireland, where everyone sing is the norm. (Are these yours bonniebede?)

    But these were exceptions - I suspect that one of the influencing factors was the presence of a good number of immigrants in living in the parish.

    In most Irish parishes that I've observed, the vast majority are either elderly and set in their ways, or only there to get their kid into the local school, and have no interest in doing anything beyond the bare minimum. This does not include interacting with the day's scriptures in any way, or cultivating any type of relationship with Jesus.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I'm just not sure how one can accurately observe another person's level of interaction with sacred scripture, much less someone else's desire to cultivate their relationship with Jesus.
    Brings us back to the title of the post...
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "...and some, I assume, are good people..."
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