Frustrated and Discouraged
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I found out yesterday that my college hired someone else to direct the traditional choir next year. They claim to have emailed me to set up an interview, but I never received it, and so they've hired someone else. The person has experience with polyphony, but no knowledge of Gregorian chant. A friend and I have been working with the chaplains to start moving that Mass towards more Latin, chant, ad orientem, and other traditional praxis, but I don't think those changes can happen if I'm not in charge of the choir. /Now/ they're bringing me in for an interview, but I have no idea what positions remain or if they're even music related. I'm trying to trust that God has a plan, but it seems like traditional Liturgy and especially chant will end up being consigned to the dust bin here. Prayers would be appreciated.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    praying . . .
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Were you already the choir director? And they decided to run a hiring process without talking to you about it?
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I've been acting in an unofficial capacity as assistant director. I was also the current director's chosen successor which has always decided the one chosen to direct in the past. I mean, it wasn't necessarily a given, but I had no small reason to think that I would be given the position.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Well, I can understand the desire to run an interview process in that case. But the email thing is just appalling.
    Thanked by 2Ben Scott_W
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Who is the person who decides the hire?

    It's conceivable at a university that the HR bureaucracy works apart from a hiring manager in another group, but that said, but it would normally be the person you already report to, effectively (if they have hiring authority) who would have reached out to you in person.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    What's worse is that they initially emailed me to ask me two dates worked for an interview, to which I immediately replied that either day worked. The days came and went and I received no response on a time. I went in person the second day, and they told me they were very busy after Spring break and they'd contact me. And I didn't hear from them.

    The Ministry team has the hiring authority. Again, I've been working in an unofficial capacity. Out of a desire for continuity in the community, the current director had always put forth his successor and they've been the one hired.
  • Reval
    Posts: 186
    Possibly an email spam filter worked against you? Recently I missed an email to send a recommendation letter, that was sent from our own HR department, that got stuck in our internal work email spam filter. Sheer luck that I found it in the spam notification a week after it was sent.
    Sending a prayer your way - - I hope it all turns out for the best!
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I'm very sorry about this for you Vilyanor. I would also be very upset if I was in your position. I wish I had more to offer.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    This sounds like what's going on with me right now. Eerily similar.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    There is more going on here than just undelivered emails. No one writes of a preferred candidate just because they don't respond to an email.

    It won't feel like it now, but I'd say you've missed out on a position that would not have been a happy one to be in (dodged a bullet, to put it more bluntly).
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I agree- sounds like a bullet dodged indeed. Will pray for your situation, and I'm truly sorry for the disappointment.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    None of this sounds good. I don't know what to say. Prayers.
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Thanks for the prayers, everyone:)

    I went in for the interview, which I think went reasonably well. They told me the hire isn't set in stone, so they're still deciding.

    On the other hand, the man in charge of Ministry told me that he had a policy of the Sunday Masses not being liturgically "too above" the reach of a normal parish, he doesn’t want people to get used to it and then go out to normal parishes and be dissatisfied and lose faith or something.

    I'm not sure what to do with that. It's been my hope to eventually move the traditional Mass to a Sunday, and the univocal response of every person I've discussed that with has been excited and hopeful, even people who are very active in praise and worship music on campus. There's so much wrong with that philosophy beyond even the liturgy. We should just keep people sheltered and complacent because if we allow them too much goodness or truth or beauty they might become dissatisfied with less?

    I guess as Jesus would say, "put down your cushion and convalesce."

    If I am hired, it looks like I'm in for a long, difficult road. But I suppose taking that road for the sake of giving the liturgy its due beauty in whatever way I can is a way of proving that philosophy to be wrong.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Wait a minute. Just because the rest of the church in this country slacks means everyone else must too so that people aren’t disappointed? Having an artificial spiritual high all the time is one thing. Singing the Mass well is quite another.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...not being..."too above" ... a normal parish...[lest] people get used to it...and....

    This has to be, absolutely has to be, one of the most genuinely, clinically, idiotic examples of ratiocination that I have encountered - ever.
    1. What is a 'normal parish'?
    2. One is more likely to lose faith at one of these 'normal parishes' than most anywhere else.
    3. Which means that his 'abnormal parish' just might be a lifeline to faith - it might even attract others who are losing theirs.
    Thanked by 9canadash Spriggo CHGiffen Jani Daniel Bennett Page StimsonInRehab ClergetKubisz Elmar Casavant Organist
  • doneill
    Posts: 207

    Shouldn't an educational institution be a model of what to aspire to? I've always wondered why so many Catholic colleges will have drivel at their Masses, while a high academic standard is present on the rest of the campus. Let's build the Church up, not sink down to everybody else's level.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn canadash CHGiffen Elmar
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Restaurant Owner:
    "Let's not make our best attempt to serve high-quality food here. People might get used to fine dining and then, at a later date, move away to someplace where they only have diners and Applebee's. If they're used to fine dining, they won't accept less and will starve themselves. We don't want to be responsible for them starving themselves. Hang on while I serve up this order of chili fries."
    Thanked by 11ryand M. Jackson Osborn canadash CHGiffen Daniel Bennett Page Jani eft94530 StimsonInRehab Olivier ClergetKubisz Casavant Organist
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    On the other hand, the man in charge of Ministry told me that he had a policy of the Sunday Masses not being liturgically "too above" the reach of a normal parish, he doesn’t want people to get used to it and then go out to normal parishes and be dissatisfied and lose faith or something.


    This is a VERY common problem priests can face in a diocese, as other priests complain about "their parishioners" returning from his parish with grandiose reports of the glory of the Mass that they heard.

    This also created the practice of the TLM community being herded to a less-than popular parish location with Mass at a less-the popular time.

    The TLM Mass is a second-class Mass until it appears at mid-Sunday morning.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    When I was at Houston's St Ambrose back in the years after the council, we had a solemn high mass in English with fine music, sung everything (that's everything!) every Sunday. It was a beacon - and was supposed to be. Parishioners would very often return from visiting elsewhere and exclaim that 'we didn't realise what we had until we visited such and such'. Unfortunately, this sane answer to the council lasted about five years, until the pastor, Msgr Victor di Primeo, died. In more recent times a new church has been built and the forty rank Wicks with a Trump en Chamade was sold because the 'pastor' didn't want to move it. That's average cath'lic for you. We want the best of everything! The very best... except liturgy led by Fr Ed Sullivan.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Daniel Bennett Page
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    This has to be, absolutely has to be, one of the most genuinely, clinically, idiotic examples of ratiocination that I have encountered - ever.
    Using "ratiocination" is being too polite, too kind, even with the "idiotic" adjective. It (the reasoning) is postively, absolutely absurd. That's what it is.
    Thanked by 6M. Jackson Osborn canadash CharlesW Daniel Bennett Page Spriggo dad29
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    That's average cath'lic for you. We want the best of everything! The very best... except liturgy.


    My question is does the average Catholic, priest or laity, even know what the best is? I don't think they do. They will go for the glittering beads, bangles, and eye candy, not realizing it isn't worth much. At the same time, discarding what is of value because they don't know the difference.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Elmar
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    ...being too polite...

    Well... Adam just said that we need to be more polite - or something like that.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Well... Adam just said that we need to be more polite - or something like that.


    When he starts practicing that himself, I will take it more seriously. LOL.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Trump en Chamade


    Really should be enclosed.
    Thanked by 2Daniel Bennett Page CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Sunday Masses not being liturgically "too above" the reach of a normal parish, he doesn’t want people to get used to it and then go out to normal parishes and be dissatisfied and lose faith or something.


    I wrote about this idea once, suggesting that it was a reason in favor of traditional music.

    Bottom line: IF you want people to stop going to church when they leave college (or high school), the best thing you can do is bind up their religious experience with contemporary, faddish music.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    For the same reason, the pastor tries to make his homilies only as good in general as those in the neighboring parishes, and the DRE only wants to teach as effectively as the next church over. And the faithful are exhorted to be only about as virtuous as average people.
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  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I just remembered that the college's theme this year is "Called to Greatness". Ha!
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    On the other hand, the man in charge of Ministry told me that he had a policy of the Sunday Masses not being liturgically "too above" the reach of a normal parish, he doesn’t want people to get used to it and then go out to normal parishes and be dissatisfied and lose faith or something.


    This is completely bogus. It's very similar to something called formal performance management, and it's unethical. I would be highly suspicious that you were lied to when he said that (or at least he wasn't telling you everything).

    This is a VERY common problem priests can face in a diocese, as other priests complain about "their parishioners" returning from his parish with grandiose reports of the glory of the Mass that they heard.

    This also created the practice of the TLM community being herded to a less-than popular parish location with Mass at a less-the popular time.

    The TLM Mass is a second-class Mass until it appears at mid-Sunday morning.


    True, true, and more true. I have heard from other music director colleagues that the relationship that priests have with other "brother priests" can be very much like frat boys at your local college: they'll stick together, won't ever openly disagree with one another, are competitive with one another in petty ways, and will not tolerate one of their own showing them up. That relationship is one of the explanations offered to me by a colleague for why it is so difficult to get a true Sacred Music program started, even with the support of the congregation: the other "brother priests" in the area would either not approve, or be impressed by the results.

    Prime time is when the most people show up, right? Mid-Sunday morning (or whichever Mass is your latest before noon) is normally prime time. At least it is in my parish.

    For the same reason, the pastor tries to make his homilies only as good in general as those in the neighboring parishes, and the DRE only wants to teach as effectively as the next church over. And the faithful are exhorted to be only about as virtuous as average people.


    I seem to remember one of our own (I think is was Noel) that mentioned that the Protestants are playing a completely different game on Sundays than the Catholics are: they compete every Sunday for worship attendance, which was given as a reason they tend to cater to emotional highs (and have traditionally done so whereas the Catholic Church has not traditionally done so). In the Church in the modern era, we are playing the same game, but not with the Protestants: with each other.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • David Sullivan
    Posts: 355

    I just remembered that the college's theme this year is "Called to Greatness".


    I wonder if a hierarchy something like the following applies to the parish sacred music program:

    From Dom Chautard's, The Soul of the Apostolate:

    “If the priest is a saint (the saying goes) the people will be fervent; if the priest is fervent, the people will be pious; if the priest is pious, the people will at least be decent. But if the priest is only decent, the people will be godless. The spiritual generation is always one degree less intense in its life than those who beget it in Christ.”


    Or as St Paul put it--Strive for the greater gifts.
    Thanked by 5StimsonInRehab CharlesW Jani chonak eft94530
  • Reval
    Posts: 186

    I'm wondering if this thread could be re-titled as "Realizing that priests are frat boys"...
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I had never thought of priests as frat boys, but you know....not so farfetched.
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 805
    (post deleted)
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    "Realizing that priests are frat boys"...


    You'd better believe it!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE5V_Oq0bJk
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    I just received an email telling me that they hired me to be on the Underground team, which is essentially the rock band Mass. I don't understand why they would do that, it feels like a cruel joke. Once again, chant is being consigned to the dustbin...
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Reject the offer if you can. Tell them why.
    Thanked by 5StimsonInRehab CHGiffen Jenny chonak Vilyanor
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    @Vilyanor move to Australia, we need more chant supporters!
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    I would ask the hiring person to provide feedback to you:
    As you see it ...
    What skills do I possess?
    What would you like my role to be?

    Maybe the underground rock band Mass needs to be infiltrated,
    needs someone to concurrently redirect the
    instrumental rock band into a vocal garage schola.
    Bring new meaning to Matthew 16:18
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Southwell_(Jesuit)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Ceremony_of_Carols
    6. "This little Babe" (from Robert Southwell's "Newe Heaven, Newe Warre", 1595)
    Thanked by 2Jes Elmar
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    I've seen some pretty good singers come out of these rock bands, he's right, you might be sent in to fix the problem which okay, is the dirty work but maybe you're the best teacher out of the group of people they hire?
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    On the other hand, the man in charge of Ministry told me that he had a policy of the Sunday Masses not being liturgically "too above" the reach of a normal parish, he doesn’t want people to get used to it and then go out to normal parishes and be dissatisfied and lose faith or something


    Others have justly skewered this quote that fails to pass the laugh test, but I'll echo ClergetKubisz and say that it is so silly that I doubt it is his real objection.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,510
    I have heard something similar, sadly, from a priest whom I respect in many ways.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    The other version of that one is that pastors don't like to feel pressured by competition with neighboring parishes based on Mass times, liturgical music or preaching, and that can lead, passively, to a lowest common denominator approach.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Some people will avoid a parish with sacred music because they'd rather hear guitars and tambourines. They'll find the closest local parish that doesn't upset their personal sensibilities.

    On the other hand, some people will drive all the way across town if they know that there's a church with beautiful liturgy and true sacred music.
    Thanked by 3ClergetKubisz Elmar Casavant Organist
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    On the other hand, the man in charge of Ministry told me that he had a policy of the Sunday Masses not being liturgically "too above" the reach of a normal parish, he doesn’t want people to get used to it and then go out to normal parishes and be dissatisfied and lose faith or something


    Did I miss something, or does this poster live in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average?

    Does he not know, for what it's worth, that the reason many people stop practicing their faith is that the beliefs are challenging, but the presentation is not?
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz eft94530
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Against all hope, I was asked to meet with the Chaplain and a student who has a leadership position (not the person I met before), and they informed me that the previous hired has been moved to the 4pm Saturday Mass, and I will be directing St. Gregory Choir after all! Father is also enthusiastic about solemnizing the liturgy and eventually moving it to Sundays or Solemnities. Thank you all for your prayers!
    Thanked by 6CHGiffen eft94530 Elmar CharlesW StimsonInRehab princehal
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Sounds like all's well that ends well, yes?
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz Vilyanor
  • OlivierOlivier
    Posts: 58
    A happy ending! They're fortunate to be able to draw from your knowledge and energy, and you are fortunate to be in a place where it is appreciated. What great news all around!
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
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