Anger within the music ministry
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 806
    I am really mad at the music ministry of my church for choosing the Glory and Praise 3rd edition hymnal. My director and I are so mad because we couldn't get almost any new hymns from the current Glory and Praise 2nd in our pews right now. There have been many fights in the ministry and I wish I wasn't a part of a ministry with 4 groups, 3 of the 4 contemporary. I just can't stand it.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    It's tough. It's especially tough in Canada where the translations coming from hymnals in the U.S. are incorrect for our liturgies. I like the St. Michael's Hymnal, but it is not perfect either. I wonder if anyone (other than me!) would consider putting together a boutique hymnal and offering it to the greater community. Our Lady of Sorrows in Toronto assembled one. I'd love to see it.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    Canadash, when are translations improper for Canada? When hymnals include lectionary texts (psalms)?

  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,199
    I had no idea there was a Glory and Praise 3rd edition. Who is it published by as NALR I thought was no longer an entity.

    Wow, regression of the first order. I shutter to think what is in it.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I've noticed some hymnals have the propers, which have different translations. The St. Michael's has Spanish, which is not that relevant here. I guess what I meant to say is that it would be nice to have one which is perfect (or close!), but I don't think that will happen. I would think that a boutique hymnal would not contain psalms or propers anyway. I will miss having the psalms at the ready if we replace our CBW III.
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
  • Steve QSteve Q
    Posts: 121
    NALR was acquired by OCP some time ago I believe.

    http://www.ocp.org/products/30131331
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,199
    Sorry to know that. I thought all of that had died an ignominious death.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,364
    Is it that the propers are from the missal, which is only (and stupidly: harsh but true in the scheme of things) authorized for these USA?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    It seems something goes wrong every time someone tries to put together a decent hymnal. It seems either/and/or...

    Some musician is given license to rewrite all the harmonies, but does not possess the talents of the original writers. They sound weird to most ears.

    Accompaniments and pew hymnals spread content from page to page on single hymns. Who wants to fool with that?

    An idiosyncratic editor is put in charge guaranteeing an idiosyncratic result. This happens too often.

    Hymns are mediocre selections from another age, but free to publish. We deserve the best hymns of all time, not the cheapest to publish.

    We have to be inclusive. Who cares what the oompa loompas sing in their native tongue? They are here, not in their culture, and shouldn't be encouraged. Don't do as the heathen do.

    There is a magnetic current flowing from hell that affects any attempt to produce a good hymnal.

    Best solution. Buy The Hymnal 1940. There is nothing better and may never be.
    Thanked by 4canadash Casavant Organist M. Jackson Osborn CCooze
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Is it that the propers are from the missal, which is only (and stupidly: harsh but true in the scheme of things) authorized for these USA?


    Could very well be. The traditional Gregorian Propers are not always a good fit - sometimes they can be a bad fit. Missal Propers are what we are encouraged to use, in the places that even allow Propers in the first place.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,364
    Amen to the 1940. The director should also have the English Hymnal and the Westminster Hymnal.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    ...should also have...

    And, The Catholic Hymnbook, English, published by Gracewing, is very good. Everyone should at least have a copy on his and her shelf, if not in the pews.

    Of course, to add a voice in favour of the 1940: it's very Catholic now, being used by the 43 parishes of the Ordinariate - except those few who use the 1982.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    There's a very affordable hymnal put out by Illuminare Publications that has absolutely no translation issues for other countries since it's just a hymnal. Hymns. Nothing else.

    https://illuminarepublications.com/products/lch/
    Thanked by 3kevinf M. Jackson Osborn canadash
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    And that is the way music is generally done in many parts of the world, especially the UK. The congregation is given hymns to sing, while the choirs retain the Ordinary (and Propers at EF Mass). Occasionally a UK congregation will join in on Gregorian chant Ordinary, but the choirs more often sing polyphony. The problem in the US is that many Bishops disbanded choirs and insisted that everybody needed to sing everything - "active participation". Guitars and pop music simply filled the vacuum left when the choirs were gone.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,478
    ... the UK. The congregation is given hymns to sing, while the choirs retain the Ordinary ...
    Yes, and it's wrong, the Ordinary is the people's part, not hymns substituting for the Proper.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    No, it is not wrong, at least not totally wrong. A choir is always allowed to sing parts of the Ordinary, at least on more solemn occasions. And I'm not talking about hymn substitution of the Propers, at least not in the EF Mass. In the OF Mass, the Propers are still considered an option, whether we like it or not. There was never anything from Vatican II that strictly or permanently took away music from the choir - which ALWAYS represented the entire congregation when they sang.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,364
    But hymns are not appropriate as the only thing sung by the congregation.

    In England, they also sing the Asperges and the prayer for the Sovereign to chant.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Yes. In England they sing things other than hymns. But the hymnals contain only hymns. if they know parts of the Ordinary it's from other sources, often Gregorian Chant. I was at one Mass where the choir sang a beautiful polyphonic Ordinary, but the congregation chanted Credo I (no, not Credo III like is the only one in the USA!) with text only in the worship aid!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,364
    I hear I more often nowadays than III, which is still more common than IV, but they are about even.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    I would think that congregants would appreciate Credo IV and III more than I, because the former sound far less redundant than does the latter.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,364
    III is also pretty close to a major scale as we know it, just like Mass VIII. But I is more ancient, followed by IV and then III, and that same repetitiveness makes it easy to learn. I think IV is the most musically interesting: the Dies Irae is quoted at “...passus et sepultus est.” YMMV.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Noeisdas: I think you are banging your head against a wall unless you have a priest who is going to support your desire for a certain type of music. I see it all the time. You may be better off finding a parish with a priest who is more in line with your sensibilities. In this day, many people "shop around" for a parish, or wait it out for the next priest.
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