Removing The Beauty Of Mass For Lent
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,890
    We prolly agree about VatII; there are some licit questions raised about the language in certain documents, and there is no doubt that the implementation was seriously flawed in some areas.

    But if you don't care about Trent, why bother assigning a one-word derogative like "control"? I certainly hope that you are not partial to Lut'rans, which would be a distinctly NON-Eastern position.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    Not partial to Lutherans. Easterners tend to view councils with unease. Councils generally create instability and unrest for years afterwards. All the doctrinal issues that concern us were settled in the first seven councils.

    Trent was called to address Protestantism. The east cared little about Protestants since they were up to their ears in Muslims, a far greater problem. However, a reason behind Trent was to restore order and stability in the chaotic western church. Trent did set out to place the Vatican in control, so that is not a derogative word.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    CharlesW: Trent was called to address Protestantism. The east [...] Muslims,[...] restore order and stability

    So when y'all gonna call a council?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,494
    There is a "kind-a" council in the works for the Orthodox. It will deal with jurisdictional issues, but liturgy is off-the-table and not up for discussion. The council has no authority beyond what the local bishops give it.

    The east has an understanding of the papacy as it was understood for the first thousand years of Christianity. For whatever reason, and I suspect it was because popes became temporal monarchs, all that changed so that by the Renaissance, popes were no different than other European monarchs. Fortunately, the Orthodox are not set up so that a single crazy person can get in an office and wreck the ship.


    So when y'all gonna call a council?


    Councils are a dangerous thing, so I hope never to the degree of a Latin council. Follow the teachings of the first seven and the apostolic canons and you can't go wrong. Also read the Desert Fathers - not the dessert fathers who are much more fun to follow. ;-)
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Why? Why then, do we often in the United States see priests and other clergy that are very interested in keeping wealthy donors and other influential PIPs happy, even to the point of sacrificing the liturgy for it? How is it that these people are allowed to have such influence on the liturgy in the first place?
    It starts with the bishops. And trickles down. Any more questions?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,347
    It starts with the bishops. And trickles down.

    Trickle-down ecclesiology?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • WGS
    Posts: 239
    "It starts with the bishops. And trickles down."

    It seems to me that it starts with the pastors, and the pastors who are successful at it become bishops.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,347
    It seems to me that it starts with the pastors, and the pastors who are successful at it become bishops.

    Now it sounds a bit like the Peter Principle ... a concept in management theory formulated by Laurence J. Peter in which the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."
  • My dad, familiar with government bureaucracy and the Peter Principle, used to call that level the "clot slot". As in, "X has reached his clot slot".
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,233
    To expand on the topic: Dr. Peter estimated that employees in large organizations tended to be promoted if they performed 3/4 of their current job successfully. If they reached a position where they were only performing 2/3 of the job well, they wouldn't advance further, but then they would be failing to do 1/3 of the tasks of the position they had reached.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,347
    "St Peter, don't ya call me, 'cause I can't go: I owe my soul to the Company Store."

  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    You also don't get promoted if you are doing 100% of your job correctly, but who does that?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Liam