Isaac's Choralis Constantinus
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Question about audio files:

    So, when I first started this transcription process, I just put every accidental from the musica ficta in the audio files, and left it at that.

    More recently, the only accidentals I've left in the audio files are those that are part of the original partbooks, as well as any non-parenthetical ficta - leaving the parenthetical ones out.
    I'm starting to wonder if people would prefer to only hear (in the Finale audio file) those accidentals which are in the partbooks, and not hear any ficta at all.

    What do you all think?
    Do you only want to hear the accidentals within the score, and not those of any of the ficta above?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I've recently uploaded 2 different Isaac "Tu es Petrus" communios to CPDL. (Each only 1 page long, so a great addition to the Gregorian Tu es Petrus that is required for various feasts/anniversaries, etc.)

    I personally prefer the one from the Choralis Constantinus II, even though I transcribed the CCIII edition, first. Which do you prefer?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    When we do the Isaac Communios we alternate with the psalm verses and sometime the chant. With this you could alternate between the two settings... our Soprano (my wife) already thinks this is a good idea.

    Today (this evening) we were practicing the 3rd Sunday after Easter 'Modicum...'
    Thanked by 2CCooze CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I'm so glad to hear that. Thanks for sharing. =)

    I just had someone email me, the other day, about their choir working up "Factus est Repente" for Pentecost. It's wonderful to know that these beautiful works are being used!

    My own parish choir sang the Isaac "Haec Dies" (gradual) on Easter, and will a couple more times throughout the season, for its joyful Easter message.

    On the 1st Sunday of Lent, I had the distinct privilege of hearing the Chattanooga Bach Choir sing my STTB transcription of that day's "Scapulis Suis" communio. (I happen to know the director from university, so I wasn't extremely surprised (because I assumed he knew the name on the page was mine, though he couldn't have been sure I would attend), but very embarrassed when he acknowledge me, along with the noble mission of CPDL.)
    It was wonderful to hear a group (a local group, even!) perform this beautiful music, without any of my personal prodding to accomplish its programming. ;-)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,873
    As for the audio files: I would include in the sound files. at the minimum, all ficta that are unparenthesized (which I assume are those provided in the Webern edition of Choralis Constantinus) in the sound files.

    I'm assuming those parenthesized ficta in your edition are your own editorial suggestions. And I would seriously consider including in the sound files at least those that you feel are "right" ... and in my cursory evaluation of and disposition toward these choices, generally, they do indeed seem warranted.

    The main thing in providing sound files is to have them sound as close to what you feel is right for performance. In other words, prepare a sound file that would reflect your own performance preferences.

    Parenthetically (lol), I would suggest that, in the CCIII version of Tu Es Petrus, the third note from the end (a B natural) in the Alto part might receive a (flat), so as to avoid the tritone with the Soprano note (an F natural).

    I hope these comments help. :)
    Thanked by 2MarkS CCooze
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    We also sang your setting of the Communio Pater, si non protest for Palm Sunday for the first time this year. This was very well received.

    I am also told the York Oratory is also singing Issac Propers...
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I uploaded the Alleluias for the 9th Sunday after Pentecost (ATTB, I almost took the time to transpose it, but then it would be for SAAT/Bar, and there aren't usually that many altos to spare) and for the Assumption (SATB, the 2nd setting, from CC III).
    We're trying to get our house ready to put on the market, so using the computer hasn't been especially possible, recently.
    I thought that these Alleluia could easily make lovely little motels, if not propers, for those days, though.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Short notice, I know, but I just uploaded the Alleluia and Communio for Epiphany to CPDL.

    If anyone has a particular Isaac proper request, please let me know!
    Happy Christmas!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    Ad te levavi oculos from Tract Lent 3, We are thinking of making this another Polyphonic Propers week! We have the complete set for Epiphany 3 and Quinquagesima.

    We will also want the complete set for one of the weeks after Easter TBD!
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Will do.
    I apparently was working on this tract, back in March (based on file history)...
    I'm guessing I had to stop when my husband's work sent him home for "safety" reasons.

    As soon as you know which Easter week, let me know!
    1379 x 857 - 349K
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    @tomjaw, I'm trying to make it look nicer before putting it on CPDL, but I have it all in Finale, now, if you want to look at it in advance.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    Brilliant, we were practicing the complete cycle of Isaac Propers for Epiphany III and Quinquagesima last night (before another choir Christmas meal, conveniently on the Julian calendar Christmas day)

    For Easter, we are thinking either Dominica II or III.

    INT. Misericordia Domini (Not on CPDL)
    ALL.
    COM. Ego Sum pastor bonus (Already done)

    INT. Jubilate Deo (Already done)
    ALL.
    COM. Modicum (Already done)

    I see the that the Alleluias that Issac set for these two Sundays is not that found in the Roman Graduale, Isaac does not appear to have set the Pascal Alleluias as found in the G.R.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I have a question that I think I haven't yet brought up, in the midst of all these transcriptions:

    Repeated words/phrases:
    Would it actually have been common practice to repeat a word multiple times, as in the DTO editions of the Choralis Constantinus (usually easily identifiable by the italicized iterations)?
    (Where the part books actually denote "ij" is decently straight forward, and that's not what I'm referring to.)

    I alternate between transcribing straight from the DTO and straight from the partbook facsimiles, though often using both when something seems odd.
    During my current project, I used the chant to place text, checking against the partbooks, and then against the DTO to see how closely "we all" agree.

    Anyway, I'm trying to decide if I should start setting only the exact text, without word repetitions, or if the repetitions actually help to keep the music more focused and in context for both the performer and the listener..?

    For example: Instead of 2x reiterating the word "iniquo," is it better (because it is more accurate, textually speaking) to simply have 1 iteration that lasts multiple measures?

    Thoughts?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Perhaps a more interesting question:

    While setting the text for the bass line, I realized that the partbook had the following mark beneath the staff: O 3

    It is only in the bass part. However, I wrote it up in finale in both Common and 3/4 time, to see what difference it makes. It's interesting to look at.

    I copy/pasted it all into a PDF to put it side by side. (I couldn't seem to upload it here, because the website refuses to host it?)

    What do you think?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • What does the OO mean anywhere else it is found?

    As to repetitions of words, I have only a singer and composer's perspective, not a scholar's.

    1) Given the period, melismatic music was common, and surely this is especially so with Isaac's corpus, given how much he used the chant melodies. Many notes to one syllable would make perfect sense before the question of polyphony was introduced.

    2) It may very well help the singers to have repeated words, since we're a day-dreamy lot, but the question of which words one would repeat then comes in.

    3) If I recall correctly, it wasn't uncommon to have notated rests in the middle of these melismas in other music of a similar time period (and even earlier). At least in some editions, those aren't taken as the indication to stop a word and restart it on the other side of the rest.

    4) Perhaps there are two questions to wrestle with here: what would Isaac's contemporaries have understood, to the best of our ability to discern same; are the long melismas without repeated text too confusing for modern singers?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,873
    As to the OO 3 that appears in the bass partbook, I think that it is a message to the singer to "feel" the tempus perfectum (prolatio minor) (O) rhythm within the tempus imperfectum (prolatio minor) (C) mensuration. Moreover, this feeling actually seems to begin at the syllable "-do" (on D, halfway through bar 52), with the double OO at that point perhaps indicting a hemiola, and the 3 the regular meaning of O (as three beats, subdivided in two). This is reinforced (to my sense of things) by the triple rhythmic feel of the alto part beginning in the middle of bar 52, as well as the triple rhythmic feel of the tenor part already presaged in bar 51. By the beginning of bar 54, all four parts have a triple rhythmic feel.

    Since the OO 3 only appears in the bass partbook, it may be that the "conductor" (leader) had inserted the symbols to guide how the ensemble should be led, or perhaps just to satisfy a personal sense of rhythmic feeling. Writing it out in triple meter is interesting, although I would probably leave it in the duple meter (as DTO does).

    Probing further afield in a bit of digression:

    Triple rhythmic feeling is found in other duple rhythm scores. I've personally noted (for myself, and a few times when leading the ensemble), the triple rhythmic sense of parts of the Byrd Ave verum corpus - notably at "Cuius latus perforatum, unda fluxit sanguine" (especially notable in the alto part, complete with a hemiola on "fluxit sangui-") and at "Esto nobis praegustatum...".

    I hope these comments are helpful.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,498
    Underlay is especially problematic in the Bezecný/Rabl volume. The best I feel I can do is to show clearly what's in the print and what might be missing, eschewing syllable extension lines to allow room for inevitable penciling during rehearsal. DTÖ assumes the bass has to sing the missing "et" (unfortunately not putting it in brackets) and your version adds "et fortitudo mea". The 1550 print though indicates "me-a", singable in one breath.

    Traditional editing practice has two uses for italics: either instead of parentheses/brackets for all editorial choices, or instead reserved for repetitions indicated in the source by shorthand, such as the "ij" for "fortitudo" at your m50.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Thank you, all, for your input.

    This particular piece (not completely uncommonly) has words in some of the partbooks that don't seem to belong at all, and sometimes (as you noted, and more commonly) "missing" words, as well.
    This is the first time I've gone mostly independent from the DTO edition, for these and some other reasons (including the insertion of a stack measures to fit the missing psalm text), and I suppose my own setting of the text to the music may have left something to be desired.

    I will keep your insights in consideration as I try to finish transcribing this piece.
    Thanks, again.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    A comment from our former choir master,
    my instinct is for repetition of text, rather than (I presume) extended melismata on vowels, some of which would be broken by rests. This is what I am used to with 16th century polyphony, but as Isaac belongs to an earlier generation, there will probably be those who disagree.
  • Repetition of text also allows for more natural breathing opportunities, and (in my mind) helps to shape what can otherwise become a somewhat formless mass of notes.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    We have just had an Issac Feast...

    Saturday, 9.30 E.F. Mass, Feast of the Espousals of the B.V.M.
    Two of our choir members had the Betrothal ceremony after Mass so we celebrated this Feast, it was formerly celebrated in England on this day.
    Full Propers sung from the G.R.
    K, G, C, S, B, & A
    Missa Super Dixit Maria Hassler
    Dixit Maria Hasler
    Alma Redemptoris Solemn tone
    Cum esset Desponsata, Isaac

    Sunday 11am E.F. Mass
    Mass III, Credo VI
    INT Adorate Deum, Isaac
    GRAD Chant from Graduale Romanum
    ALL Dominus Regnavit, Isaac
    OFF Dextera Domini, Palestrina
    COMM Mirabutur omnes, Isaac
    Alma Redemptoris, Simple tone

    Since everybody is enjoying this music at our parish a couple more requests, Our Parish priest said he really enjoyed being able to listen to the music.

    Corpus Christi, INT. Cibavit eos and ALL. Caro mea COM. Qui manducat
    N.B. The Communion is different to the G.R. but we could sing this after the GR communion. I don't think we will get away with singing the Sequence.

    Dedicatione Templi INT. Terribilis est and COM. Domus mea

    Sancta Cruce INT. Nos autem, Alleluia Dulce lignum, COM. Nos autem
    N.B. The Communion is different to the G.R. but we could sing this after the GR communion.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    RE: OO 3

    I decided to scroll through some pieces that I knew did switch to perfect time, and then scroll through the Basso part books, and I found a pattern. LL... MM... and then realized if I kept scrolling, I'd eventually get to NN and OO.
    It basically appears to be an early version of (PDF-like) bookmarks, using the alphabet for quick reference to the various Sundays, etc. So, I found the OO for the other partbooks, they just didn't sit in the same place in a score, because it wasn't specific to a place in a piece, but more like a page reference.

    You learn something new, every day!
    ----
    However, I still think it's neat that switching it to perfect time at that point still sort of worked... But at least I have my answer to that part, anymore. Now, I need to consider my text underlay and whether I should just put it completely back to the DTO, leaving my personal opinions of how I would have set the more flexible words to myself..?
    648 x 588 - 143K
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,873
    Ahhhh! Mystery solved with respect to the double letters. But what about the "3" - which might still indicate triple meter?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Oh, well, there's OO 1-3, as well as with the other letters. These aren't exactly equivalent throughout, but seem to be indicative of proximity to the beginning/end of each of the propers (Int, Alleluia/Tract, Comm) included.

    I checked each of the other scores, and found that the 3 for tempus perfectum was always indicated within the staff of every part which sings in the new meter.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,873
    Fair enough, your assessment about the numerals seems to explain it. Great detective work!
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Tom, I see that the communio Qui manducat has already been set and uploaded to CPDL by Aristotle Esguerra. Are you needing it to stay in the original key, or will his edition work?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    Sorry @CCooze I was looking at the pages on CPDL and thought that if there was no link the piece had not been set, I will have to look again using my brain to make sure the pieces we would like are not listed elsewhere.

    Regards,
    Tom
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    These Isaac settings were put to good use this Sunday, Quinquagesima, we had a feast of music,
    Introit: Esto mihi (Heinrich Isaac)
    Tract: Jubilate Domino (Heinrich Isaac)
    Offertory: Benedictus es Domine (Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina)
    Communion: Manducaverunt (Heinrich Isaac)
    The rest was chant sung in full from the G.R. Mass XI (original Kyrie), Credo II.

    The Introit takes c.6 mins to sing and the Tract c.7mins. We seemed to have got away with lengthening the Mass by around 6-8mins! No one has complained! The Tract is really lovely.
    Thanked by 2CCooze CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    That's wonderful, and sounds like it must have been beautiful!
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I'm setting the Introit for Palm Sunday.

    We briefly talked about this, earlier in the thread: that some of the Isaac introits' psalm verses were incomplete, text-wise.

    What do you think of this (attached), as a way to make it work?
    (I sort of wanted to leave the half-notes in the bass, and just have the part on "delictorum," without the last word "meorum," but thought maybe this would look less-strange..?)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,498
    This 'problem' arises if the goal is to exactly match the Vatican text, but less fiddlely would be to just chant "…longe a salute mea verba delictorum meorum." before repeating the antiphon (G.P. being omitted).

    I'm curious about what 1962 rubrics actually require, though. Are Introit verses ad libitum as I imagine them to be for less predictable processions like Communion? Are there any post-tridentine examples of a half verse being used in an Introit? Ψ XXI:2a certainly seems like it could stand on its own.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    My understanding of the Rubrics, is we 'should' be singing the text as found in the G.R. So to use these Isaac Propers Liturgically the text should be the same, although the Constance Graduale was not the Roman Graduale, so some differences both in text and in some cases a totally different text is used by Isaac. If the difference is one or two words or just a different word order we sing the Isaac text.

    With the Introit, under 1962 the extra verses are ad lib but the first verse should be the same. Our former choir director has had us write in the Gloria Patri, on our copies so we can sing that in the same polyphonic style. I suspect he would do the same as CCooze, with putting in the G.R. words for this Psalm.

    We have not had any complaints singing these Propers, so we will continue, and add to the number we sing each year. My plan is we will have around 8 Sundays when we will sing the complete cycle of Propers, with other Sundays singing just the Communion.

    We will be recording these when the Covid guidelines are officially removed, I will of course post a link here.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    There is, of course, always the wonderful option of chanting the Gregorian antiphon, verse (and when appropriate, G.P), and then having the "repetition" of the antiphon be the polyphony.
    That is normally the way we (because the powers that be are concerned about Mass-length) sing these propers.
    For anyone paying close attention to the music, hopefully they would notice that the polyphony is based upon what was just chanted.

    Of course, it could always be a Gregorian antiphon with polyphonic verse and repeated polyphonic antiphon. Many options, really!

    I don't like to change things, if possible.
    But I do want the minimum requirements for singing of propers to be fulfilled if someone uses one of these settings.

    I could always make my reworkings an addendum, but the sheer number of pages, could easily put someone off, before they get into the actual content.

    I went through all the introit psalms that I've set in this mode, and they all have the same basic progression - which makes complete sense, of course - with their main differences being his lengthening and shortening them to fit the required text.
    So, in this case, it could have looked very similar to what I did, or it may have simply had a few bars more of polyphony, to fit in the missing words.
    It didn't seem that what was missing was long enough for a repetition of both chant+polyphony, though.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    Why can we not have two versions the original, and a version with the G.R. text, for those that need to use it Liturgically?

    Fortunately we can sing the Introits in full, although sometimes it may have been better to chant the repeat of the Antiphon (It would save our priest a couple of minutes sitting down before the Gloria / Collect.

    For one of them we could not get the Introit learnt on time so we did sing the psalm verses to the Isaac setting. It was certainly impressive. I have wondered about singing a whole psalm in this way, Chant / Isaac / Chant?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    save our priest a couple of minutes

    For some reason, our congregants have begun standing as soon as the priest ascends the steps to the altar. They just stand there... even when the introit is still being chanted, even when the Kyrie is being chanted. It's really odd.

    The polyphonic verse isn't completely necessary (especially when incomplete/no longer "correct"), anyway.

    Technically, anything having to do with the verse could be a separate file.
    Of course, that just makes things more cumbersome for the editors.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Is this way of setting it more "authentic?" (I'm not being sarcastic.)
    If it's on the right track, but you have a suggestion, please suggest away.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,498
    The close parenthesis is confusing. I'm still wondering what the letter of the rubrics actually is (if indeed it touches on such a detail), but those of us with musicological scruples need to know where Isaac stops and Cooze begins.

    Deus, Deus meus respice in me quare me derelinquisti?
    (longe a salute mea verba delictorum meorum.)
    Domine, ne longe …
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Well, the closed parentheses is to not repeat the same text, "Deus, Deus meus, respice in me, quare me dereliquisti?" a 2nd time.

    The top half of the page is the end of the Isaac.

    "Cooze" is technically only the 1 chanted measure "quare me dereliquisti?" and the second, "Deus" of the "Deus, Deus meus."

    The parenthesis + last system gives an option:
    1) either chant that full 3-bar text, and move to the last system to finish, or
    2) ignoring the parenthetical chant after having sung the top chant + system, and move down to the last system, basically singing the exact same music a 2nd time, in order to have finished the text.
    - I don't especially like this 2nd option, because it's singing a double iteration of the final of a psalm tone, without the reciting tone.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    How about this one?

    Leave Isaac be (though, still with the added "Deus"), followed by the rest of the GR verse: using a modified psalm tone, and ending with the same Isaac final.

    Thoughts?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,498
    Not "closed parentheses" but the position of the close parenthesis ")".
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Can you tell me what is confusing about it?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,498
    Deus, Deus meus respice in me quare me derelinquisti?
    (or: Deus, Deus meus respice in me quare me derelinquisti? )
    longe a salute mea verba delictorum meorum.

    I would read this as implying the polyphony beginning at "Longe…" is 'non-parenthetical'.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I see. That is, indeed, the way that I was presenting it.
    For the sake of the GR psalm verse, "longe..." is non-parenthetical.

    The parentheses were simply another option, but placed within parenthesis so that it would hopefully appear to be an either/or, rather than a both-and scenario.

    I suppose I could write out the text of the verse at the top of the page, and then place everything below, including a chanted "longe..." so that it is a buffet of verse fragment choices, but that seems needlessly complicated.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,498
    The trap is that one might assume you're editing Isaac instead of GR. More self explanatory would be:
    Deus, Deus meus respice in me quare me derelinquisti?
    (If wished, one may instead sing the entire verse according to the GR as follows: Deus, Deus meus respice in me quare me derelinquisti?
    longe a salute mea verba delictorum meorum.)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    So, that's where the other question comes in - does the explanation need to be in the document itself, or should it only be in the edition notes, or does it maybe even need to be in both places?

    For that matter, how many options are really necessary?
    Should I only give the option the way I would most likely perform it, or should I create 3 separate verse pages, and say, "pick one... or none," as the individual need may be?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,293
    Or something like this?
    Ad lib. Version modified to follow the text of Graduale Romanum 1924/6x ed.


  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    Re: Introit Psalm verses:

    From the Canons Regular:

    To emphasize the importance of the Introit as an entrance song to be sung by the people, not only does De musica sacra et liturgia encourage the people to sing it,[36] it actually says this:
    “If the priest and his ministers go in procession by a long aisle, it would be permissible for the choir, after the singing of the Introit antiphon, and its psalm verse, to continue singing additional verses of the same psalm. The antiphon itself may be repeated after each verse or after every other verse; when the celebrant has reached the altar, the psalm ceases, and the Gloria Patri is sung, and finally the antiphon is repeated to conclude the Introit procession.”
    [37] Note well that it says the singing of the Introit could be extended “until the celebrant has reached the altar,” not until the celebrant has reached the foot of the altar.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw ServiamScores
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 1,839
    DTÖ assumes the bass has to sing the missing "et" (unfortunately not putting it in brackets)

    This has been an interesting discussion.
    I'm in the process of editing Rogier Michael's Introitus Dominicorum (1603). The issues are very different from Isaac in some ways: The style is predominantly syllabic, and even when filling in an ij, there's no real doubt about which syllable lands on which note. Michael frequently leaves out an "et" on repetition or in one part, and words get repeated willy-nilly. So it would seem that the DTÖ editor's assumptions are unwarranted.

    Where the processes are similar is in how to balance accurately representing the composer with making an edition for liturgical use. I'm modernizing spelling. But sometimes the texts are a little different. I've been setting the modern text in italics beneath the original, and usually it's the same number of syllables. But I'm finishing Palm Sunday right now, and Michael has "unicornium" instead of "unicornuorum"; I'm not sure how I'll fix that. Also, Michael doesn't set verses. I figure that most of us prefer "one stop shopping", so I've been setting them to falsobordoni by di Lasso. One could also do them alternatim with the chant, but the polyphony is not always in the same mode, which could make life interesting.

    Anyway, Ms. Cooze, thank you for what you're doing. I have a dream that the entire repertoire of polyphonic Propers will someday be on CPDL (at least the manageable ones; I don't think the 8 and 12 voice settings would be of general interest; indeed, the 5 voices of Michael are a stretch for most of us.)
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CCooze CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,256
    I unfortunately didn't get Palm Sunday's introit up in time, as a thunderstorm here caused all sorts of problems in our computer.

    It's back up and running, so I am now going to work on the introit for Corpus Christi.
    Let's hope it will be less problematic than Palm Sunday!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,527
    Are Introit verses ad libitum as I imagine them to be for less predictable processions like Communion?


    To come back to this point, or rather the communion point: singing the Communion chant at the beginning of Communion, after the Ecce Agnus Dei and Domine, non sum dignus, existed for about seven years, and before then, the chant was sung at the ablutions. I'll have to do more reading on what was explicitly permitted after Pius X's motu proprio. On Sundays, the Asperges doesn't allow for a second long procession, and in cathedrals and collegiate churches, the ministers would likely enter the short way or the organ would play, as they left at the end of Terce to vest; however, one could sing the Introit at that point, which might require verses, but not necessarily so. Any gap created by not finishing at the same time as the prayers at the foot of the altar finish is covered by the organ or moving onto the Kyrie.

    For some reason, our congregants have begun standing as soon as the priest ascends the steps to the altar.


    Aha. If the clergy kneel for the prayers at the foot of the altar, they then stand as soon as the priest finishes. I personally like to see this catching on, and while I'm not going to force anyone to stand, nor shall they force others to kneel during the conclusion of the Introit and the Kyrie all the way until the intonation of the Gloria.