5/4 bars in hymns
  • Heath
    Posts: 934
    Happy New Year to all!

    Caught the end of a Mass last week here in town and the organist added an extra beat to the end of every "breathing" measure in "Angels We Have Heard on High." For instance, "Angels we have heard on high.." (5/4 bar, extra beat to breathe), "sweetly singing o'er the plain" (5/4 bar).

    I have heard of some organists doing this, but I had never experienced it personally . . . I found it very awkward and a momentum-killer.

    Thoughts?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Heath,

    I can't quite track what you mean in relation to this particular hymn, but the general rule I follow is this: Organists should never make it hard to sing vernacular hymns.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    And the cat says:
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    Thanked by 2Heath bhcordova
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Space for breath is wisely made. This space should be robbed from the last beat of the measure. There are times, though, when a musical phrase ends but the grammar of the text doesn't. In such cases I do not break at all and tell my choirs to breathe deeply and sing the text. In any case, no time or beats should ever be added to hymns. The grumpy cat says it all. An exception is adding a tasteful pause between stanzas - after holding the last chord for just a smidgen too long. This forestalls the people gasping for breath from stanza to stanza, and allows, as well, a moment to absorb the text's import. I never try to sing with an organist who never misses a beat from one stanza to the next. It's like stumbling over hurdles to reach the goal in record time.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen bhcordova
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Then there was the Methodist organist in a nearby town, who would stop the anthem to turn the page.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Liam
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Try this: conduct 5/4 against “Lo, how a rose e’er blooming”. :) (Serious!)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Then, there was the custom in earlier times of the organ adding a flourish at the end of each line. The congregation were accustomed to this respite and had no trouble singing when it was their time to do so. (Of course, our 'very highly advanced' XXIst century people could [so some would say] not do this. And even if they could, Protestants could, and Catholics, of course, could not.) The organ setting of In dulci jubilo by Bach that is so commonly played as a closing voluntary at Christmas is a written-out example of this. Try it as a choir piece sometime - having your choir sing the text and the organ playing the flourishes. I suspect that a congregation on hearing this would soon 'get it' and learn quickly to follow suit.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    The flourishes probably are time for "lining-out" the text, in the days before cheap paper and pew hymnals. I was a bit embarrassed for SF Opera when the director of this Fall's Meistersinger put hymnals into everybody's hands and had them just wait around while Walther and Eva performed their scene between choral phrases: the practice was once widespread in America, if loudly deprecated by writers about music. Excuses to revive it are few nowadays, but you can whisper-prompt the upcoming lines to Silent Night if someone looks flustered when the lights go out.

    Church of the Advent in San Francisco has a very quirky system for adding beats in between verses, which I still can't quite work out without using a penciled hymnal, though the congregation is accustomed to it. The director's rational is that on the basis of the 'audition' he can decide whether it's worthwhile to go to coffee and track down the newcomers.

    Then there are the famous to add or not to add moments in "Amazing Grace" and "Joy to the world". My liveliest moonlighting experience this year was "…earth receive her king (2 3 4) let…" followed by the 3/4 bar "…nature sing.Joy to the…"
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • SeasonPsaltSeasonPsalt
    Posts: 78
    Umm... wow! I'm guessing the organist (or someone who told the organist to do this) was thinking it was a courtesy to short-winded people. I'm thinking they were mistaken. Some roads are paved with good intentions, I guess.

    I heard a nun once, I think it was Sr. Dianne Bergant, in The Psalms: The Prayer of the Church, but I'm not sure, complain that church musicians need to learn how to count to four again...
  • MBWMBW
    Posts: 175
    What never? No never!
    What never? (Ahem!) Hardly ever!!
    Hardly ever add an extra beat…

    I do in Erhalt ins, Herr and Ich glaub an Gott - and maybe a couple of other tunes that I can't think of right now. Anybody else as ill-bred as me?
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Chris Hebard
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Then there is the (less-often-heard-now-a-days) very English custom of having the organ play the first chord of the first stanza (or even of every stanza) for about two beats before everyone begins to sing. This is rather fun to do if everyone knows about it and co-operates. We've done it at Walsingham for some of our evensongs. This is also a common way of 'introducing' Anglican chant tunes for English psalmody and canticles.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    MJO Yes, it is still done over here, not that I hear it much as our EF choir hardly ever sing vernacular Hymns / songs.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Our congregation does this with "O Salutaris Hostia" (DUGUET) when they sing it unaccompanied and it drives me nuts. Sing the whole phrase, please!
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