It can't be required at Mass by anyone on any grounds whatsoever.

Yes, it can: the Pastor can specifically request it for all 4 Sundays and then threaten you with termination for insubordination if you don't comply.

But if they sign the pay check, they do have a right to require it.

We must always remember we do not work for the church, we work for the priest who signs the checks.

In the same way a parish priest does not work for the church, he works for the local bishop.

Does a priest sign a pledge to always refer to and follow carefully what the rules are in the GIRM?

I have twenty-one Advent hymns in my hymnal. Four or five of them are so bad I would never use them. The rest get divided among the Sundays of the season. It is what it is.

http://www.hymnary.org/text/in_days_to_come_the_desert_shall_bloom

It's a chant hymn that people love. People are ASKING to sing CHANT. Sing it - and Creator of the Stars of Night - often and make people happy. It's one of those requests that we should be happy to fulfill unlike "hey.. can we sing X" - when X usually is always something or either poor musically, theologically, poetically, etc.

MJO said what I was trying to articulate. I also agree it is overused.

the Pastor can specifically request it for all 4 Sundays and then threaten you with termination for insubordination if you don't comply.

But if they sign the pay check, they do have a right to require it.

As for the above opinions that he who writes the check has the 'right' to demand it. This is patently wrong. He has the power - not the right, just as he has the power to forbid chant, but neither the right nor the authority. What's right is what's morally justifiable and done with genuine authority as opposed to imposed by power and position.

I think I addressed all of these when I said

if you ignore these people, you should prepare a resume and look elsewhere

Still - if the only thing one had to complain about was singing this hymn one should consider one's self fortunate.

Yep! It could be eagles wings, so maybe singing "O Come..." is not so bad in comparison.

Here's a proposal;


Let us (musicians) encourage the praying of Vespers, so that these antiphons can have their proper place. It will partly fulfill the mandate of the Council to expand FCAP.

We have a couple of solutions here, and they include the use of Finale and complete worship aids, and no use of hymnals or Missalettes (at least for the music section).

1. Entrance Procession can't use all the verses. So I have two versions: verses 1, 2, 3, & 6; and verse 2, 4, 5, & 7. We use it only two Sundays in Advent.

2. For Communion at yesterday's EF Mass, all verses including an 8th verse that I wrote based on the eighth "O Antiphon" in the back of The English Hymnal (1936).

This whole conversation seems a little overwrought in the propriety dept.
My EF church:
Advent 1, "O come" as processional/recessional (we split the hymn, because 1 or 2 verses of 2 hymns is silly); "Veni veni" after the offertory antiphon.
Advent 2. "Creator of the stars of night" and "Creator alme siderum", as above
Advent 4: "O antiphon of the day" for offertory motet.

People seem to like it, and it's what my handful of guys can do easily.

Carol,


Welcome to the forum.


Given what the verses of Veni, Veni Emmanuel are, they are best used between the 17th and the 23rd of December. That means, most of the time, they are used only once a year. This year, they could be used twice. Many moons ago, I used a single verse of this hymn as the beginning of the carols before Mass. I know it's very popular, and popularity isn't necessarily a bad thing ( since some things which are popular are also good) but I think that which is saved for special occasions gains by its intentional limitation.

This year, they could be used twice.

This is rather misleading, especially to a new forum member, IMHO.

That's okay, I believe I read most all of the posts and I do understand. I have been involved in Church music in some way for the past 40+ years. I share some of the frustrations I see in these posts. My husband and I have had many discussions about the current problems with liturgical music of today. Our parish just reordered OCP for next year. I have a fair understanding of liturgy, and I have known the origin of the" O Antiphons" for a long time. I know the reasoning behind saving the hymn for Dec. 17th onward, but I also would like more suggestions for decent hymns for Advent. I see that this site is interested in more traditional music. I don't care if it's old or new- I care if it is theologically sound first and foremost. Then is it musically written and is it singable for a congregation as I see myself as a leader. I can do solos elsewhere, my role is to encourage the faithful to participate in the Mass by singing. Some of the hymns meant for guitar accompaniment are poorly written, in my opinion, and some are not scriptural.
I get the feeling most of those on this site are from large city parishes. We are mostly volunteer musicians and we want to do our best, because this part of the Mass.
We use "The Advent of our King" and although it jumps around alot on guitar, it is possible to do a decent job.

Sorry have to go to traditional choir practice. But will look forward to any more comments you may have.

I was not aware of any 'movement' amongst clerics against using 'O come...Emanuel' throughout Advent, but it would seem to be well advised. Reserving it to the last Sunday seems appropriate, given its history.
Some have really 'highlighted' this hymn by stretching it out serially through the season. This would seem harmless, perhaps interesting, but really causes a thematic centreing of this (or any) hymn, and an undue emphasis on this or any hymn which is essentially mistaken in conception.

I heard Christmas music in Walmart some time ago. Of course, I also saw Sasquatch in front of the ice cream freezer and witnessed a miracle, as well. The battery in the electric cart a lady in bad physical condition was riding stopped in the middle of the aisle. She got off it and walked away. Miracles do happen! Lots of purple bold.

I am the original poster on Nov. 14th and I thank all of you for your comments. Could you please translate the Latin? Is it 'Emmanuel is born for us, Israel'? The sentimentality comment stung a little although I don't think it was meant to- guilty as charged. However, I also do think that the meaning of the verses of "O Come O Come ..." is about more than the Incarnation and the fulfillment of the promise of a Saviour, I think the prayers of the verses are still applicable to today's world. I see it as about the Second Coming as much as it is about the Incarnation and Birth of the Lord Jesus.

I don’t know Latin, but Perseus seems pretty clear: future.

Carol,

Let me push the analogy a little further. Advent is the 9th month of the pregnancy of the Blessed Virgin Mary. At some point in the 9th month, attention switches to the needs of the mother. We can't help the baby yet, much, except by helping the mother. If we celebrate the birth before it happens....... but if we spend all 4 weeks of Advent saying "Any day now"......... Just as we prepare our houses for Christmas in stages, we should allow our music to progress.

Carol,

Yes, I think I understand that the verses are applicable to the 1st and 2nd Coming.

I grew up singing "O Come, O Come", and even wrote a descant to it years ago. I now play at an EF parish and direct the choir at another. I sang Handel's Messiah, or, at least, the Advent and Christmas portion + ALleluia chorus every year for 10 (or something) and was very happy to put it down, to allow other music to bubble to the top.

If I weren't in two EF situations, I would want to sing This is the Record of John for the appropriate Sunday.

The sentimentality comment stung a little although I don't think it was meant to- guilty as charged.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been so harsh. I can see you are truly trying to do what is best in your situation. I write out of a very frustrating situation in my parish where it's all about sentimentality (whatever those in power perceive to make the people happy) with seemingly little or no regard to what True Worship requires.

Church musicians are at the service of their pastors so whatever you can "get away with" that will promote true worship, go for it. The question always, though, to keep in mind is, what will please God, not, what will please the people.

A mild suggestion for consideration:

If the Veni, Veni Emmanuel tune is what appeals so much to people, yet the text seems better suited for the end of Advent, on might consider using other Long Metre (88. 88) texts with the same tune, retaining the Refrain "Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel Shall come to you O Israel" ... for example for Advent I, one could use the text of "On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry" (which is usually sung to Winchester New).

Welcome, Carol, and don't be surprised to find that some of the folks here are a bit purist about when to sing Veni, veni, if at all. I think it's a perfectly decent way to give people the signal that The Season Has Arrived. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to sing it more than once, because there are so many other great Advent hymns that I happen to find more tuneful. The tune of "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" was found in a collection of processional chants; so why not use it for an Entrance procession (or recessional) on the First Sunday of Advent, and then fill in the other hymn slots for the four Sundays with other pieces: in an average parish's Mass with four hymns, you just have 16 slots to fill during the season, and who would want to omit "People Look East", "O Come, Divine Messiah", "Creator of the Stars of Night", "On Jordan's Bank", etc.? And of course you have to deal with the limitations of what the parish is used to: introducing two new hymns every week would be asking too much of the congregation!

Q: Which was Hans Urs von Balthasar's favorite Christmas Carol?


A: The First No-Hell!

If you are looking for suggestions on what to play during Advent, and feel that the use of "O come, O come Emmanuel" is too much, I'd suggest reserving it to the 4th Sunday of Advent, although the "Rejoice, rejoice" would work for Advent III "Gaudete Sunday". For Advent Sunday (Advent I), I'd use some form of "Wachet auf" (and maybe throughout Advent, at least until Advent IV). MJO can probably name a good version. I'd also suggest "Comfort, comfort ye my people", and I know GIA publishes a not-too-bad version in their "Revival" series (OK, I know nobody here would like to use it, but at least it's giving hymns to the contemporary groups without using the Tomlin/Maher style). I use "Let all mortal flesh keep silence" during communion during advent, and I know "Revival" has a version of that too. A "Magnificat" is always nice as well.