Diphthongs in singing Latin
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Are dipthings used in singing Latin?
    I have understood that the best choirs use pure vowels, not dipthongs. Comments?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Ecclesiastical Latin has diphthongs in words such as "laus" and "qui".
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That depends upon one's interpretation of phonemes, Richard.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    /au/ was a diphthong in Latin, though epigraphic evidence shows that initial, unaccented au in late Latin was pronounceded a, e.g. Agustus.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    My understanding is that diphthongs are sung where there is a written diphthong, and not where there is not (e.g., "e", which is often pronounced as the diphthong "eh-ee")
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    Sometimes the melodic shapes of the neumes imply an articulated diphthong. I have often observed a small melodic rising on upper and frontal vowels like the final "u" sound with "O" : O=[o-u] (as in moat) or the EE sound, as in MAY [ah-ee] (ay), and there are often descending notes within a neume for those final R's that are never consonants.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The Liber Usualis has a guide to Latin vowels on pages xxxvi - xxxvii (which may be printed in the book as xxxvj - xxxvij).

    It names "au" ("lauda"), "eu" ("euge"), and "ay" ("Raymundus") as diphthongs;
    rarely "ei" (in "hei" but no other times);
    and "ui" if preceded by "q" or "ng" ("qui", "sanguis"); but not preceded by "c" ("cui").

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    and "ui" if preceded by "q" or "ng" ("qui", "sanguis"); but not preceded by "c" ("cui").


    This makes no sense to me at all.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The instructions are telling us to treat "cui" as a two-syllable word and "qui" as a one-syllabub word.

    For instance, in "Gloria, laus et honor", the Palm Sunday processional hymn, the melody provides distinct syllables for "cui"
    image

    and this is one syllabub:
    image
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    383 x 88 - 12K
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The instructions are telling us to treat "cui" as a two-syllable word and "qui" as a one-syllabub word.

    Got it. Makes sense now.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    Well, if the dipthong is written out, and noted, as in the example above, that is clear, but what about other examples where the pronunciation of the second part of the vowel is nor given, but possibly implied, or you would be led to sing it - any examples?
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 207
    Well, technically speaking if you have an extended phrase or melisma on au, eu, ei, etc. you don't phonate through the first vowel and hold the second one anyway. You hold the first vowel and then sing through the second vowel a split second before the next syllabic change. I know of only one or two very small exceptions to this rule but I can't recall any right now. So realistically despite what's stated they are a combination of two separate vowel sounds in either case. One group is an elision (probably not the best word for this), and one is separated, either way it's still two distinct sounds that make the combined vowel.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFLlW0HQL_g
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