Oh When The Saints Go Marching In
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My principal has insisted that Fr. has approved this song for use during the school Mass for our All Saints celebration (which actually won't be on All Saints Day, but will be the Friday before. I've sent an email asking Fr if he wants to do a votive Mass for All Saints but he hasn't replied). She tried to do this last year and the Associate Pastor turned it down, but this year, she's insisting that the Pastor has approved it. How can I explain that this song is not appropriate for Mass? She seems to have very little liturgical knowledge, as evidenced by her insistence that the above mentioned song is OK. I am currently trying to set up a meeting with the Pastor.
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ClergetKubisz,
To borrow a thought from Moliere: the best way to say "this song is not appropriate for Mass" is just that: "this song is not appropriate for Mass".Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz -
Thank you, CGZ. That probably is the best approach. My fear is that whole "...the Pastor approved it..." junk. I don't really think that the Pastor truly approved it, but until I get a meeting with the already booked solid man, I won't know for sure. I do know for sure that the principal is taking advantage of that fact, and trying to strong arm me into doing the song because she wants it done. Is there any way that I can insulate myself from the "...Pastor has approved it..." side?
Oh, and I get the distinct feeling that she is trying to get my wife and I fired (we both work for the parish school). -
Does the pastor have email or phone? If you believe with some certainty that he never would have approved it, you might just drop him a line or give him a ring, and leave a message. You might not even need to mess around with scheduling a meeting.
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You could, of course, do the ORIGINAL version of the song, which happens to be the In Paradisum from the Chant Requiem Mass. Tell the teacher that you're being historically accurate, faithful to the traditions of New Orleans Catholics as they accompanied the casket from the church to the cemetery next door.
Heh. -
Ugh. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. That is all.
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That's true, dad29, it is technically a funeral song.
Thank you, irishtenor, you've always been supportive of me.Thanked by 1irishtenor -
It is essential not to take music people see as secular and sing or play it in church. Especially children.
Here's why you should not sing it at Mass, since many children are very familiar with this song from Barney.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_BqMUDieaY
Stay out of the middle. Go to the pastor and express your concern and let him deal with it. Otherwise, you are going to get caught in the middle...
The principal is a typical person who wants something that they want to be sung by other people. It'd be cute.
And the offer of the peace should be to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmpMO2dJQ6Q
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Can you shift the question from "Did he approve?" to "Does he really want it?"
"Hi, Father. I need your guidance about music for the school Mass on Friday. Principal Jones wants to sing 'When the Saints Come Marching In'. I think it's kind of a party song, and there are better songs we could use. But if it's something you especially want, I'll do it."
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In New Orleans, "When the Saints" is traditionally used as a funeral march for "jazz funerals" – to accompany the coffin to the cemetery (played very slowly and sadly), then on the return from the cemetery (played in a typical Dixieland jazz style).
But that doesn't make it at all appropriate for a school (or any other) Mass.
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"The pastor approved it" usually means they haven't asked him about it at all.
That or he was in a hurry or distracted and just shrugged a yeah-ok-fine-goodbye response and went away to do something important, so the principal took that as tacit approval of her infantile request.Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz -
The easiest way to know if the Pastor actually approved it is to ask him: did you, Father, approve hymn ........; I consider that it's inappropriate because .....
If you get to the second part, hope you have a rock solid pastor. If you don't need the second part, don't waste your breath. If he didn't approve it, the person claiming otherwise has egg on her face. -
I spoke with the Pastor this morning, and basically used Chonak's words verbatim. I suggested that we sing "By All Your Saints Still Striving" which is in our book (whereas the other song isn't), and has been known by this parish for years. The Pastor's response was that he would contact another priest who knows music better than he does and that we would get back with me. (our Pastor doesn't really know music very well, and once told me directly that, "...I leave the music to the musicians." Prayers needed. God bless you all.
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I thoroughly hate that hymn/song or whatever anyone can call it. I wouldn't, however, die on this hill because of it. It isn't worth it, especially if it jeopardizes your job.
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Why does your priest not trust your opinion on this? That's a huge red flag.
"I'm going to call someone who knows about music." -
To be honest, no priest I've ever worked with has trusted my opinion when it comes to music, at least not implicitly. At a previous parish, the Pastor was constantly over my shoulder and I was always in his office answering the following types of questions: "how do you pick music for Mass?" and "I want to make sure you understand my expectations," and "Please tell me what you think my expectations are and how you are meeting them," etc. At my current parish, the Pastor and I do not normally communicate regarding the school liturgies, and I have just simply been trusted with them for upwards of five years now, with no intervention on his part. Now, we have a principal who wants to do cutesy stuff with the Mass and that has forced dialogue that probably should have happened long before.
Update: Just occurred to me that it would be beneficial if I mentioned that my primary duties at my current parish revolve around teaching music at the school, and I am not primarily responsible for weekend liturgies: at this parish, I am a teacher, not the DM. -
I really can't imagine the stress of this sort of situation, as I've been fortunate to never having worked for such as pastor. Clerical insistence of a mitigating hand in repertoire is a deal-breaker for me. A thoroughly competent and informed musician who relinquishes that responsibility is a choirmaster, not a director of music.
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Hmm. If only there were an effective way to stick your nose in the principal's job, to show her how inappropriate her meddling is. Maybe you could even ask her if it's in her job description to choose music for Mass.
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To be honest, no priest I've ever worked with has trusted my opinion when it comes to music,
This is common when a priest has hired musicians who do no more than walk in, pick up the job as it is and carries on with no irritation to the people.
Anyone who does otherwise freaks him out and causes him to fall behind the "I'll talk to..." clause.
If he's got a strong associate that wants new music he make take up your cause, otherwise you are rocking the boat that pays you.
Some priests have trouble trusting the musicians they hire. Interesting, no? -
Great thoughts, Noel, thank you. That is indeed what has happened, at least with the last four music directors at this parish: they've either not had much musical instruction, or they've not had much (if any) liturgical instruction, specifically music within the context of the liturgy beyond keeping the people happy. So, the Pastor is likely accustomed to dealing with those types of people. However, he does have a strong associate Pastor, who wholeheartedly supports me in my approach to Sacred Music, and approves of the use of Gregorian chant, who chants his parts very well himself, and has an appreciation for traditional aspects of the Mass.
I have been doing SEP for about a year and a half now with the students for the school liturgies (except Introits), have eliminated the Offertory hymn (we only sing the Offertory Proper), added the Communion Proper (followed by "hymn of thanksgiving:" usually a commonly known Communion hymn from the hymnal), begun singing the ICEL Mass unaccompanied (sometimes with a drone for harmony), implemented the Graduale Simplex for major feast days (such as our patronal feast day, which was today: Pope St. John Paul II. I follow the Latin with an English translation), and I do a Gregorian Chant Mass during Advent and Lent (I tried to do it year-round last year, and somebody complained: I assure you, it wasn't the Pastor, but he was the one who told me that, "Latin is reserved for more penitential seasons.") The Pastor himself has never complained about any of the above, unless someone else came up to him about it, which also has never happened, with the exception of the one about the Latin.Thanked by 1irishtenor -
Just reading about this gets my stomach all tied in knots. It is beyond inappropriate for the principal to be attempting to dictate the music sung at Mass, as if she has had any liturgical or musical training. I can't imagine sticking my nose into someone else's job duties like that. It's so presumptuous and, in my opinion, childish: "Why can't we do this the way I want?!"Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
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You are unaware that Catholic schools are often totally at odds with the parish office and administration...much as we are with them about music.
In addition, they are hired with full-time jobs and are more apt to stand up for themselves. Last parish I served, the parish employed people were not permitted to enter the school. Period. During or after school. Being forced into using the school for months for Mass and rehearsals was an interesting experience. -
Well, I wish I'd seen ClergetKubisz's description of the pastor before writing that pitch above. Since he wants to stay out of music questions, then ryand's scenario sounds most likely. Principal asked: can we sing XYZ? Pastor said, it's OK with me. So it's not something he really wanted.
Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz -
Why not just sing it after Mass, at the time which some people call the Recessional?
I disagree that the principal has no say in what material is used. That would be true if ClergetKubisz was a parish employee or volunteer. But s/he is not. As a teacher under the authority of the principal, the principal has oversight responsibility for every single professional action that ClergetKubisz takes. In the same way that a pastor does for a parish employee.
That said, if I had a supervisor who was micro-managing to this extent, I would be looking for alternative employment. -
Why does your priest not trust your opinion on this? That's a huge red flag.
"I'm going to call someone who knows about music."
Not necessarily an evil thing. The lady-provocateur claimed that the pastor approved it. He knows that you're a party to the dispute. If he agrees with you without an authority outside of the situation, he creates a new storm. If he has an outside authority, he has confirmed his own opinion and allowed the case to be decided by someone who isn't a party to the dispute. It's like saying, "let me do some research, and get back to you."
Thanked by 1PaxMelodious -
Why not just sing it after Mass, at the time which some people call the Recessional?
Because a church is supposed to be a holy place.Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz -
Found this in the Council of Trent, 22nd Session:In the next place, that irreverence may be avoided...They shall also banish from churches all those kinds of music, in which, whether by the organ, or in the singing, there is mixed up any thing lascivious or impure; as also all secular actions; vain and therefore profane conversations, all walking about, noise, and clamour, that so the house of God may be seen to be, and may be called, truly a house of prayer.Thanked by 1musiclover88
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How exactly is singing "I wanna be a saint" impure or unholy?
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The answer to this can be found in the Q&A page on musicasacra.com.
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Chonak may be referring to this:Q: What are the characteristics of sacred music?
A: On the centenary of its promulgation, John Paul II urged us to revisit and learn from St. Pius X’s letter motu proprio on Sacred Music, Tra le sollecitudini (1903). Pope Pius distinguished three characteristics of sacred music: “it must possess holiness and beauty of form: from these two qualities a third will spontaneously arise — universality” (§2).
Concerning holiness, for music to be sacred means it is not the ordinary, not the every-day. It is set aside for the purpose of glorifying God and edifying and sanctifying the faithful. It must therefore exclude all that is not suitable for the temple — all that is ordinary, every-day or profane, not only in itself, but also in the manner in which it is performed. The sacred words of the Liturgy call for a sonic vesture that is equally sacred. Sacredness, then, is more than individual piety; it is an objective reality.
Concerning beauty, the Latin speaks more precisely of bonitate formarum or “excellence of forms.” This refers to the tendency of sacred music to synthesize diverse ritual elements into a unity, to draw together a succession of liturgical actions into a coherent whole, and to serve a range of sacred expressions. Excellence of forms also serves to differentiate those elements, to distinguish the various functions of liturgical chants by revealing their unique character. Each chant of the various Gregorian genres presents a masterly adaptation of the text to its specific liturgical purpose. No wonder the Church has consistently proposed chant as the paradigm of sacred music.
Sacred music must be true art, says Pope Pius, “otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds.” Beauty is what holds truth and goodness to their task. To paraphrase Hans Urs von Balthasar, without beauty, the truth does not persuade, goodness does not compel (The Glory of the Lord: A Theological Aesthetics, I: 19). Beauty, as expressed in the Church’s liturgy, synthesizes diverse elements into a unified whole: truth, goodness, and the human impulse to worship.
Concerning universality, sacred music is supra-national, equally accessible to people of diverse cultures. The Church does admit local indigenous forms into her worship, but these must be subordinated to the general characteristics of the received tradition. By insisting on the continuous use of her musical treasures, especially chant, the Church ensures her members grow up hearing this sacred musical language and receive it naturally as a part of the liturgy. -
Here's what the plan is going to be, after speaking with the Pastor, who consulted another priest and then conferred again with the principal, who sent me an email detailing the procedures:
The children in costume will process before the ministers, to the aforementioned song, then the "real" entrance hymn will be sung as the ministers process in and Mass actually starts. So, I guess that's that. -
The children in costume will process before the ministers.
Will Father be in his clown suit, or will they all have to wait until he puts it on to say Mass? -
the Pastor, who consulted another priest and then conferred again with the principal, who sent me an email
http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/categories/job-openings
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http://careers.acda.org/home/index.cfm?site_id=18712 -
Yes, Adam, that's what a lot of the teachers are doing too because of this particular person (the principal).Thanked by 1Adam Wood
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Oh well, undoubtedly the 4th graders (or some class of kids) will be in their saint costumes. My kids have all done that - - not so bad is it? They wear their saint costumes all day, so of course they will wear them to Mass.
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Oh well, undoubtedly the 4th graders (or some class of kids) will be in their saint costumes. My kids have all done that - - not so bad is it? They wear their saint costumes all day, so of course they will wear them to Mass.
Any teacher (I am now retired) would understand this and has probably been there and done that. -
How exactly is singing "I wanna be a saint" impure or unholy?
Because there is more to the roman catholic vision of sacred music than just the words.Thanked by 1musiclover88 -
They wear their saint costumes all day, so of course they will wear them to Mass.
Makes sense now...if that's the plan! -
Clerget,
He's trying to separate the procession from Mass itself, and still be able to say to your tormentor that the children did sing the song.
Cheers,
Chris -
Yes, I realize that in a small way, this is actually a victory, for lack of a better way to put it. I also realize the incredibly uncomfortable position into which this whole ordeal has placed the Pastor: having to decide, essentially, between his music teacher of 5 years running, who is and has been in good standing with him the entire time, bar one or two small issues, and the principal who he hired to run the school. Coincidentally, I was speaking with the parish music director after school, and he mentioned to me that the Pastor had asked him about the song: the music director told him, emphatically, "No."
It will go on Friday as listed above, even though it's not perfect. I think she has a vision of this that will not be realized, and that she is going to be disappointed with the result of her decision. Sometimes allowing someone's idea to come to fruition is the best way to show them how silly or inane it actually is. -
I jokingly told my husband that I wanted to play a postlude based on "O When the Saints Go Marching In" on November 1. He said, "Rule of thumb: if you might hear it at a circus, it doesn't belong at Mass."
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musiclover88
I just finished your piece. See other thread. DO NOT USE IN CHURCH!Thanked by 1musiclover88 -
So, just as an update as to what happened:
Simply put, nobody sang it. Even though we scrambled to get the words put in each of the pews, and the choir members had song sheets, only two of the teachers even attempted to sing. The principal was not happy in the least. Guess what, though? When I started the actual entrance hymn "By All Your Saints Still Striving" nearly the entire congregation was singing.Thanked by 9irishtenor eft94530 Spriggo bonniebede MichaelDickson chonak canadash gregp musiclover88 -
Yep. Uppity laypeople voting with their vocal cords. Will the oligarchy get the message? Let's pray so.
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