Grammar digression
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    This discussion was created from comments split from: When an employer changes their mind.
  • 'When an employer changes their mind.'

    Can I, um, be forgiven for wondering if this employer has multiple personalities?
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    image
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  • 'And every listener interprets these signals in their own way.'

    Humph! More split personalities!
    A blatant (and banal) exercise in (faceless) nihilism.

    (We all know that language is a growing and changing thing [a process, actually, more than a thing?], which is all well and good; but it is yet best if it is rational.)
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  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
    Singular they has been around for awhile. Chaucer used it in 1395.

    600+ years of documented use supports it as a thing. Just to be sure, I asked the official source to find out if singular they was a thing.
    http://isitathing.com/singular-they

    Now go forth in peace.
    593 x 353 - 13K
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  • donr
    Posts: 971
    So language is more than just words. For example are the two individuals in the cartoon male and female? which one is male, which one is female? Are they both male or both female? Does it matter to the conversation at hand?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    This thread can devolve into trivial grammatical debate lasting several pages and end with a debate about icti.

    The OP careth not.
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  • I knew that some fellow would trot out Chaucer and all those intervening years. That only goes to shew that sloppy (and non-rational) English is nothing new. I don't recall having heard this usage in my youth. I believe that it has become really smart, chic, and oh-so-fashionable in recent years because we are evolving (have evolved?) into a society that likes to pretend that gender doesn't exist (except for the inconvenient need to procreate), nor do we wish to ruffle the feathers (or disturb the chips on shoulders) of feminists. Some things that have been around for 600 years are worth keeping. Others aren't. This singular plural is one of the latter - it always sounds stupid, and always is irrational. If you don't want to say 'he', etc., then say 'she', etc. It's really quite simple. If you want to use a plural pronoun, then use a plural subject. It could'nt be simpler nor make better sense. Using parallel fifths doesn't make me into a Bach. Nor does using the singular plural make you into a Chaucer.

    And, so that we end with ryand's debate about icti, let it be added that just because the mighty ictus preoccupied some minds for the better part of the XXth century is no reason for us to conclude that it is applicable (or even real) for all time. We've already outgrown any claim to existence that it ever had. (Ha! Come to think of it, Chaucer never heard an ictus!)

    How did your interview turn out, ryand?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Read answers above.
  • Good luck to you. You are facing significant but also exciting challenges.

    [edited]

  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Wish you hadn't edited. I had a great THEY joke. Now mine is edited too. Now their's is edited too.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Regarding the singular they I try to:
    1. Uphold the robustness principle.
    2. Remember my audience.
  • Wish you hadn't edited.


    Well, at this point I don't even remember what they said. But I know that there's something that they say. We all know that.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    The "rules" of agreement that many of us were taught in school are of fairly late development in English; they are not especially deeply rooted. It's not surprising that they are not necessarily the most enduring. In terms of common usage, at least in the USA, the ship has already sailed.
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  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I don't have grand mal or anything over the singular "they", (I try to limit myself to minor conniptions and intermittent pearl clutching,) but I am noticing more and more, that when the subject is known and a specific person and in posession of XY chromosomes, MORE & MORE PEOPLE ARE USING THE SINGULAR "THEY" ANYWAY.
    Excuse me, I seem to have gotten over-excited, I'll just recline here on my fainting couch for the nonce.
    Uphold the robustness principle.
    Dare I ask?
    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Uphold the robustness principle.


    Dare I ask?


    This is a concept that comes from network computing, but which (I think) has good applicability to social situations. Put succinctly, it is:

    Be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept.


    In computing, it means --- follow the standard when you send data or requests to other nodes, but don't punish other people for syntax errors; try your best to figure out what they meant and respond accordingly.


    More here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle
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  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    I ain't never heard no rule about singular deys.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I wonder what my favorite English teacher from high school is up to these days. They would love this thread.
  • What really gets my goat is when today's communion is sung "let them take up their cross and humble themselves" instead of "themself". I see I really made the spell-corrector mad there.
  • Upsetting a computer is a noble calling, Richard.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Oh? I guess that's as in, 'If anyone will come after me, let them deny themself and take up their cross ... ' At least "themself" has a long history, all the way back to the 14th century, recently revived in this age of gender neutralization.

  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    pretend that gender doesn't exist (except for the inconvenient need to procreate)


    Gender exists in grammar. Sex exists in humans. I have yet to see a sentence procreate.
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  • A supervisor in one language program was a widely published linguist, and she said that we tend to say we are descriptivists, but are actually prescriptivists. That is, most people think that it sounds priggish to say what MUST be done, and so we proudly only offer our judgment of what is actually used. The problem being that we choose among what is used, and so instantly go back to prescribing.

    This is what I teach, and I think Adam's guide is fine--remember your audience. Austen used it, and she is pretty much my arbiter for modern grammar. Fowler allowed it in Modern English Usage. It's only sloppy if language is literal, and it isn't. It's functional, and we hit places where literalness doesn't quite do the job. That's true of all languages, and I can function to one degree or other in most modern descendants of Latin. I used to ask my students, "Are human beings simple or complicated?" "Complicated," they would invariably say, with varying degrees of exasperation. "So," I would explain, "language must be complicated, too."

    I will say, as an English teacher for many years, the impersonal they has been around for a long time, will be around for a long time, and is unobjectionable. I use it all the time--per Adam, depending on the audience.

    Kenneth
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    All this talk of grammar is causing me to expect Miss Downing, my high-school English teacher to appear. She was quite wide, had the requisite bun, wore comfortable shoes, and looked the part of an English teacher. She loved Shakespeare, and we were all sure she had known him personally. Stereotypical English teachers. Long may they wave.
  • I shared an office with the other stereotypical version: thin and ascetic, rather birdlike. She taught a higher level, and one day I borrowed her grammar book. Every place where the author had included a footnote that said, "Informal," she had crossed it out in red and written, 'Incorrect." I warned my own students ever after. Yes, long may they wave.

    Kenneth
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    image
  • The apotheosis of 'their' -
    I consider my audience, too (which of us doesn't?), and always assume that it is composed of literate folk who would justifiably giggle (because they thought I was, at best, being funny) if I used the ab surdum locution under discussion here. There are lots of idioms and grammatical eccentricities that have been around as long as this singular plural that some of us are trying very hard to deify. I continue to maintain the opinion that the greater part of its very vocal proponents who feel so strongly about it do so, not in the slightest as a nod to Chaucer or antiquity, but because it is thought to be all but required in a world in which we must at all cost avoid saying 'he-his'. So! It's simple, say 'she-hers', or even 'it'. Shakespeare also used 'aint', as did polite gentry up until near-recent times. So, shall we all start saying 'aint' because it has a long and noble pedigree? - I don't think that it would get us very far. An eagle-eyed student (probably a sophomore who thinks he has discovered something no one else knows) will chirp that he found parallel fifths in Bach's works - so shall we all start slewing them willy-nilly throughout our own work? - I don't think that it would get us very far. (When all is said and all is done not one of us, highly literate to a man and a woman, is going to change his mind.)
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    My 3rd & 4th-grade reading teacher had a sign in her classroom which read,

    "Everyone is special in their own special way."

    It drove my parents nuts at every parent-teacher conference those two years. (Yes, the reading teacher.)
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  • Smart parents!!!
  • I can't believe that M. Jackson Osborn is so rude that he would point a grammar issue in the thread title. It wasn't on topic, and honestly, I think it's insulting to someone to interrupt a good discussion about employment for this kind of thing, spin-off thread notwithstanding.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    ... spin-off thread notwithstanding


    I'm sure you have noticed by now that we excel at spin-off threads. LOL.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    I wonder just a bit now if the employer was actually a firm or company or institution, in which case it might read better as: "when an employer changes its mind"
  • Of course across the pond we have examples of singular-plural that diverge from what is ordinary here. There one might be interested to read that 'the choir are on recess for the summer', or 'the congregation are asked to sing', or 'the public are invited', etc. It is fun, really, trying to guess which plurals are singular and vice versa over there (though I, who have loved Britishisms since I was in the fifth grade [and never had a teacher or professor take issue], do enjoy joining that fray). I don't think, though, that this falls into the same category as 'the woman was badly burned because a candle fell into their hair'. Such absurdities are commonplace (I didn't make it up) in print over there and over here. I am certain that this idiocy was not around in my youth; certain because I remember being quite astonished when, a few feminist years ago, all of a sudden everyone was saying idiotic things like 'everyone in the room brought their lunch', or 'the lady spilt coffee on their dress', or 'every student must bring their own books'. Thank you, I shall ever consider that my audience are literate and capable of distinguishing between rational and irrational language - and it has nothing at all to do with these would-be-lofty assertions that language is a growing, ever-changing thing unbound by rules (my goodness! that's hardly news!): it has everything to do with plain old sloppy usage and follow-the-crowd speech, with a good bit of whatever-you-do-don't-offend-any-feminists-who-might-be-within-earshot thrown in.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Two vignettes:

    First, I recall (a goodly number of years ago) having telephoned the phone company and being somewhat surprised by a recording to the effect (I don't remember the exact words), "Please hold and an operator will be available shortly. They will be happy to assist you."

    Second, several writers of mathematical textbooks in years past made a point of randomizing the otherwise indefinite gender of students (and others) in their exercise sets, something like this was not uncommon: "A student evaluated the following integral using integration by parts. Show that she could also have evaluated it by a direct substitution."
  • Charles,

    The second, even if artificially imposed, respects both the singular aspect of student and the fact that he and she are appropriate pronouns for students. "They", in the first example is precisely the sort of oblong-headed behavior we see too often in our country (and I'm on the left edge of the left side of the pond). There's no good reason for the first. None.

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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Indeed, Chris; however, what people miss is the point that such writers were doing their part to break a long held bias in those times against women in mathematics. I still recall a mathematics major, (female) classmate and good friend of mine telling me that a (male) mathematics professor and advisor had told her that, while she could certainly go to graduate school to study mathematics, doing so was mainly for the purpose of meeting, marrying and bearing the babies of a male mathematician.
  • Charles,

    I'm glad we agree on the principles. Since we're living in the era of Common Core, could someone explain to me why textbooks have to be used to advance social agendas?

    Imagine a music history textbook which focused only on women composers, or compositions for women!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Since we're living in the era of Common Core, could someone explain to me why textbooks have to be used to advance social agendas?


    Textbooks, government, education, the church - the list grows on and on.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I have yet to see a sentence procreate.

    Happens on this forum all the time.
    ALL THE TIME.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    I can't hardly understand their grammar no more!
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Happens on this forum all the time.


    Big sentences make little ones? And the little ones grow by adding clauses, I suppose. The problem children don't have commas, semis, or periods?
  • I have yet to see a sentence procreate.


    Happens on this forum all the time.


    Both in the multiplication of sentences and (in the vulgar metaphorical sense) the act which leads to procreation.

    As for the neuter singular pronoun (which shares the form of the plural pronoun), if we're going to object to it, perhaps we should bring back the word Miss for unmarried females who we know are unmarried or who have given us good reason to believe they are unmarried or unmarriagable.
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    perhaps we should bring back the word Miss for unmarried females who we know are unmarried or who have given us good reason to believe they are unmarried or unmarriagable.

    What?! When people call me "Miss", I always assume it's because I'm so young-looking. Now, I might have to think it's because I seem unmarriagable. Oh dear!
  • perhaps we should bring back the word Miss for unmarried females who we know are unmarried or who have given us good reason to believe they are unmarried or unmarriagable


    Did I miss a boat or something? I still use "Miss" in the situation you describe. Never stopped using it.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    You probably missed the strange looks behind your back if you used it for an adult woman....
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  • Liam,

    I was teaching in a classroom. Nearly all the female teachers were "Miss" (or, at least, that's what it sounded like). The only one I remember being "Mrs." was the mother of four boys.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    When I was in elementary school twenty years ago, old fogey, me, almost all the students called the teachers Miss X, whether they actually styled themselves (in writing) Miss, Mrs., or Ms.---even the men occasionally got called 'Miss' from time to time. 'Miss' was probably preferred due to having fewer syllables, the all-purpose contraction:
    Missus = Miss' / Mister = Mis' .
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    What I actually remember hearing most often was, "Miz."
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