When an employer changes their mind
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    One of the parishes I interviewed at several months back called me today because their hiring decision did not work out. I am going there in a few hours to meet with the pastor.

    This is interesting, and not a situation I have dealt with before. I have drafted a page's worth of questions I will ask, but would like to hear any input from you folks.

    The most important things I'm asking are how do I trust that this won't happen to me, and what about our previous interview prompted you to call me? What makes you think I will be a better fit?

    I'm considering outlining a far less vague idea of sacred music and what I would like to see happen, and making sure I would have his support in that. Without the split committee of sacropop veterans and closet EF proponents, I'm not going to be trying to please all people at once, and can really find out what he wants and if I'm interested in working there.

    I'm also awaiting a phone call from an absent committee member from another parish yesterday. Important people advised that pastor that they should hire me, and the interview went well so I am hopeful there. (That interview was also a sort of revert situation on their initial decision)

    Is it wise to play the "You called me - why?" card with these places?

    What other sorts of question should I bring to today's discussion?
  • I might focus on 'what in my resume-interview did you find attractive'. For sure, I think that you should make crystal clear (diplomatically of course) what your goals would be and your beliefs about the whats and whys of sacred music. Also be sure of the goals and beliefs of the pastor are clear to you and that you can work to fulfill them without conscientous trauma. Be sure that there is no gray area that may later turn into a tar pit, that you really like the pastor and are sure that he will respect and support you, and that you can conscientiously be obedient to him.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    As an employer, I would caution you not to ask why the other person did not work out. These things happen. It has happened to me a couple of times in the past year. The person just didn't work out. (Note: I didn't let them go, they resigned.) The fact that they are asking you back indicates that you rated high on their list. There are no guarantees that it won't happen to you. They obviously liked you, or they would not be asking you back now. There are also privacy issues that prevent an employer from discussing these things. I wouldn't bring up why the other person didn't work out. You don't need to know and they really can't tell you.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    If you know how to contact the person who left the job, you could casually ask what he thought of the job and if he would recommend it. Perhaps a bit of a preventing future grief thing, but it could yield valuable information and spare you future trouble. All is fair in love, war, and employment.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    "I wouldn't bring up why the other person didn't work out. You don't need to know and they really can't tell you."
    I kindly disagree. This is exactly the question I would ask. Maybe not the first question, but eventually. and if you don't get a straight answer I would be quite wary.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW BruceL
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Also note: 'the person didn't work out' is a vague wash-over that no one in the business world would settle for. If you can't discuss issues openly during the interview, you never will in the job and the same thing could happen. There is a considerate way to do this of course, like "In your view, what were some of the issues with the last director?"
    IMHO, 90% of these issues are; "the person didn't play the music we liked".
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Maybe I've missed something here, but do we know "did not work out," means something other than "had to move back to East Dotonthemap to work the farm for his pap who had a baling accident"?

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • G,

    No. That's exactly the point. It's fair to ask "Why is there a vacancy?" It doesn't imply anything wrong in anyone's conduct. The answer could be as simple as "We're expanding". It could be more complicated, "He went to take care of an aging parent". It could be "The person who last held the position was dismissed for showing up drunk to work." You didn't ask why he left. You asked why the position was vacant.

  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    @G No, which is why the question should be asked. Especially if their previous hire was there for a relatively short period of time.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    May God bless you as you discern your options.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    Also note: 'the person didn't work out' is a vague wash-over that no one in the business world would settle for.


    ghmus, you need a HR refresher course. Why there is a vacancy is really no concern of the person wanting the job. While they may be curious, that doesn't mean they need to know. Privacy laws limit what can be discussed about former employees. I cannot ask a previous employer why someone I am looking to employ left his employ. If I ask, legally the previous employer cannot answer that question. I can ask if they would hire the person again, but not much else. I don't see the interview process being much different.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide your conversation. There is no pat question or answer that will help you. I always ask these questions:

    1. What pew resources do you use?
    2. Do you have a contemporary music ensemble?
    3. Do you have a pipe organ? Does the organist play from the front or the back of the church? Do you have a piano?
    4. Do you use Latin regularly in your liturgies? (not because of Latin, but because it shows a church devoted to authentic sacred music)
    5. Does your choir sing polyphony and does the church have a music library of octavos?

    These kind of questions go to the heart of the issues.
    Thanked by 2chonak ClergetKubisz
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    At the end of the day, remember that you are interviewing them just as much as they are interviewing you. Especially as concerns sacred music, if it isn't a good fit on both sides, much misery will be the result.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    ghmus, you need a HR refresher course. Why there is a vacancy is really no concern of the person wanting the job. While they may be curious, that doesn't mean they need to know. Privacy laws limit what can be discussed about former employees. I cannot ask a previous employer why someone I am looking to employ left his employ. If I ask, legally the previous employer cannot answer that question. I can ask if they would hire the person again, but not much else. I don't see the interview process being much different.


    I understand this sentiment, but this is not the corporate world and, let's be honest, few priests operate their parishes that way. In fact, in a job world (ours) that operates on a pretty unique intersection of objective (Church teaching) and subjective (artistic concerns), it's important to know...all the more so if you have a wife and three kids like I do and are moving across the country.

    I was offered a job at Parish Z about a year after I was the 2nd place candidate in the same job. In round one, I was candid that things would not get better until Parish Z actually had a church to worship in. This parish, where the median household income probably was right at $200k, had been in a gym (!) for 10 years. The other candidate (who was also an excellent musician) said he'd get it taken care of right away. The pastor still recommended me, but his hiring board didn't and he felt compelled to follow their rec. The other candidate did do some very good short term work...and promptly left for another job as soon as he got his doctorate. You could see this coming if you looked at his employment history, but...

    In my situation, I had taken another job in the Midwest shortly after I came in 2nd: after less than a year in that job, I got a call from the (new) pastor of Parish Z...my former boss at another parish in the diocese. He basically said, "What do we need to do to get you here?" and I was promptly told to name a price. It was a tough decision not to go, but working in a parish where the staff and parishioners were all very dysfunctional (albeit with two good pastors in a row) and music was not a huge priority seemed like a bad choice. I haven't regretted the decision.

    I guess the drawn out story is to say that you never know the situation, and it doesn't necessarily have to be bad, but I WOULD ask questions in detail, albeit more about the nature of the position (and if it's changed since the incumbent, etc.) than the incumbent him/herself.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Liam
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    1. What pew resources do you use?
    2. Do you have a contemporary music ensemble?
    3. Do you have a pipe organ? Does the organist play from the front or the back of the church? Do you have a piano?
    4. Do you use Latin regularly in your liturgies? (not because of Latin, but because it shows a church devoted to authentic sacred music)
    5. Does your choir sing polyphony and does the church have a music library of octavos?

    These kind of questions go to the heart of the issues.


    Hahahahaha...

    Yeah, Ryand, ask these ones.

    ((purple bold. Also not insulting Francis, but saying that I know more about the situation in the OP's post and these questions in these situations would be hilarious))
    Thanked by 3Gavin BruceL CharlesW
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Well, don't just scoff. Add more questions.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    1) Are you going to fire me when the people rebel?
    2) Do you see our Cathedral's model of sacred music (lead by our incredibly handsome Cathedral Director of Sacred Music) as our eventual goal?
    3) Can we have weekly meetings to be sure we're on the same page?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I asked matthew's questions, and gathered answers to francis's questions without asking them.

    1) Are you going to fire me when the people rebel?
    No. Even said he doesn't care if the choir shrinks. Just make it better.

    2) Do you see our Cathedral's model of sacred music (lead by our incredibly handsome Cathedral Director of Sacred Music) as our eventual goal?
    To an extent. He would like to see one traditional and one contemporary group. The traditional with some energy (dirges make everybody sad) and only the most "liturgical" of contemporary. Did not contest my idea that they should be more similar than different... But not willing to toss out the Gather hymnals (yet)

    3) Can we have weekly meetings to be sure we're on the same page?
    Yes. We both want this. It is one of the reasons the previous hire resigned, and one of the reasons he wants me.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    1. What pew resources do you use?
    Breaking Bread. But they don't really use it. 2 directors ago was printing worship aides, I plan to do the same (I used a handsome example from our Cathedral to show him how they look if done properly- without PAPYRUS)

    2. Do you have a contemporary music ensemble?
    He calls it that, but it's not as rowdy as most, and he wants it toned down more. One of the first tasks he'd want me on is combing their various OCP/GIA materials and hand picking the best stuff, while nixing the rest.

    3. Do you have a pipe organ? Does the organist play from the front or the back of the church? Do you have a piano?
    They have an organ and piano in front. He is not at all opposed to using the (other) organ and singing from the loft. Both organs are pretty awful sounding.

    4. Do you use Latin regularly in your liturgies? (not because of Latin, but because it shows a church devoted to authentic sacred music)
    Not a lot, yet. Not opposed. Just wants to do it right so nobody gets alienated by it (again, showed him examples with translations RIGHT THERE UNDERNEATH- which he liked very much)

    5. Does your choir sing polyphony and does the church have a music library of octavos?
    They have two 8x6 cabinets full of octavos that have gone untouched for years. Another task is to comb through those. New materials are also welcomed.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    How very exciting. Let's us know when you get or take the job.
    PM me the parish so I can come hear your new choir.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    So I wound up with two offers on the table and had the luxury of choosing. Signed contract today.

    Time to start reading all of the useful threads I've bookmarked for a day like this...
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Because I am excited, I am going to re-answer the questions from Matthew and Francis, as they pertain to my new position.

    1) Are you going to fire me when the people rebel?
    No. They expect rebellion. I was told before signing the contract that I am not allowed to let senior members of the choir try to run the show.
    Anecdotes were shared and stereotypes were chuckled over. Complainers gon' complain.

    2) Do you see our Cathedral's model of sacred music (lead by our incredibly handsome Cathedral Director of Sacred Music) as our eventual goal?
    Yes.

    3) Can we have weekly meetings to be sure we're on the same page?
    Not going to happen, but I was assured that there will never be any question about which page we are on. I am to make a plan and execute that plan. Period. If there are complaints (or actual issues) I will hear about them immediately. If there are concerns or rebukes from my superiors, I will also know these things promptly.
    "There will be no surprises"


    1. What pew resources do you use?
    Printed lyric sheets. No music on the page. This will change.

    2. Do you have a contemporary music ensemble?
    All liturgies will have the same music. One will have a more sizeable choir than the others. I am responsible for all groups, including the "youth mass" which will sing the same music as the rest.

    3. Do you have a pipe organ? Does the organist play from the front or the back of the church? Do you have a piano?
    No organ until the beautiful new building is done, where the choir sings from the loft and an organ (or organ-like instrument) accompanies them.

    4. Do you use Latin regularly in your liturgies? (not because of Latin, but because it shows a church devoted to authentic sacred music)
    Not a lot, yet. My official job description includes GR and PBC.

    5. Does your choir sing polyphony and does the church have a music library of octavos?
    If they do its not great. This is an area I am expected to expand and improve for them.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Congratulations!
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Did they agree that your Cathedral Music Director was incredibly handsome? Because if not they may have issues with aesthetics.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    They're dudes. I didn't ask.
    Thanked by 2matthewj BruceL
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    That's best for all involved.