Desperation as usually at church
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Dear forumites. Everything what you are writing, declaring, fighting , winning/losing as professional musicians at Catholic church, everything I tried as well :
    # to not allow the pop/rock lyric/tunes
    # to preserve Organ at church
    # to get rid of 70th songs
    The only answer would be:
    "PArish does not like the organ, people want their songs "
    "the Pastoral judgement, you have just to follow my orders".
    OK, I read the forum, I heard everywhere ' resign", "quit", "find a better place".
    The churches are mostly the same direction, pop and rock music.
    I see no light at the end of the tunnel.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I can say, unfortunately, that many of us on this forum have been where you are. I was recently there: attempting to bring true Sacred Music to the parish where I was the DM. If you have been following my posts, you will already know that I resigned about a month ago. A few points:

    1. I agree with you that there is a prevailing attitude among Catholic Churches in the US that "contemporary" music and P&W are somehow better than Sacred Music: Gregorian chant, etc. My only observation on this is that there is also a prevailing view in Western culture that music is for entertainment, so if people don't like it, then it should be changed. Of course, the problem with this attitude is that when we're attending Holy Mass, we're not at the opera house nor in the concert hall and the paradigm changes completely. If I was singing on the stage at the Met, then maybe I'd be somewhat concerned about whether or not certain people (not everyone, of course) liked what I sang, but at Mass, never. It's not about likes or dislikes at all. The issue is the aforementioned cultural view that music is always about what someone likes or dislikes: after all, it's just for fun, right?

    2. People don't want their songs: just some people want their songs. As the very wise, much more wise than I, on this forum will tell you time and again, it is the small percentage with big voices that sway the Pastor to change what you do to fit what they think should be done. I've been studying the GIRM recently and coming up with my own views of what is wrong with the OF, and my prevailing conclusion is this: there are too many options and no objective standards by which to judge them. Everything is done per somebody's whim. This has the added danger of opening the priest to negotiation and manipulation, whereas before his hands were tied by the rubrics: he couldn't grant certain requests because the Church said so and it wasn't his decision.

    3. You will find it difficult to get a post when you're offering something that isn't understood or desired. Sometimes, it is helpful to consider who is interviewing you for the job. It could be:
    A. a committee of laypeople charged by the Pastor with finding a replacement DM. This group probably doesn't even know that the GIRM or SC exists, much less know what they say about Sacred Music. They also are more likely to view music with the entertainment mentality because the chances that any of them are trained musicians is slim to none.

    B. the Pastor himself. If this is the case, you are simply at the mercy of whatever the pastor's view on music actually is. I would seriously consider asking pointed questions, beginning with the following: What is the purpose of music at Mass? Depending on what he says, you will get a clear indication of whether you actually want the job or not. Some of my colleagues will remind me following this statement that some people don't have the choice because they don't have another source of income other than serving the church as a musician. In this case, you have to carefully balance your principles with your priorities. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice principles for priorities: we've all done it before. Either way, the decision is still yours to make and I wouldn't be able to accurately advise you on this aspect.

    4. I'm not sure where you live, but try to find an FSSP parish. Around here, they only offer the Extraordinary Form, and love to hire musicians with experience in Sacred Music. I almost landed a job as a DM for a nearby FSSP parish, which would have been a significant improvement over my old position. There is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that light is Jesus Christ. Christ appreciates what you do, and so do we. Keep fighting the good fight: you'll be rewarded in the end.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I was talking with a talented organist today after the morning masses ended. I tend to have brain fog by then, but she made some good points. A Methodist church in town is interested in her. They will pay a just wage, offer some benefits, and be great to work with. She also commented on the lack of advancement and much of a future in local Catholic music.

    I had to agree with her. If I actually needed the money I couldn't afford to work in Catholic music where I have worked for 15 years. Mind you, this is a parish with no money because vast sums have been spent on vanity projects and other projects that were just not thought through very well. That was a different administration and the current pastor is trying his best to reverse all that. Also mentioned was that when I retire, there is a snowball's chance I would ever agree to work in another Catholic church. Maybe things are different in other parts of the country, but I have my doubts about that.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    I would take the position with FSSP ,but i did not found available positions.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Perhaps one thing to consider if you have to take a position where your desire for true sacred music is not appreciated is to ask if you can work with the children as part of your brief.
    you can then take a much longer term view of what change means.
    I have found the possibility to have a children's schola, which learns to chant, and we do Eucharistic adoration together, singing our chant.
    The current pastor, who is very orthodox and reverent in saying mass, does not however understand or promote a sung mass. The aging parish choir sings a lot from the seventies.
    But the children in my group know and love chant, and are learning to pray well, and understand the real presence. They do not sing a Mass, they are not wowing the pastor or the congregations... but so what?
    Time marches on... and the future parishioners, choir members, choir directors, and even priests and bishops will be the children that have passed through my schola. The future will not sound the same as the present.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    There's a lot of wisdom in what bonniebede just said. I am essentially doing the same at my home parish where I am also the music teacher at the school (someone else does the music for Mass on the weekends). I have taught the children's schola to chant, and we sing the Offertory proper and Communion proper for the school Masses. The best part is NOBODY COMPLAINS, not even the priest. We do a Gregorian ordinary for Advent and Lent (which I don't agree with, since we should be doing a Gregorian ordinary all year round, but that was the priest's request), and we will be doing Latin propers from the Graduale Simplex this year during those times as well. Working with the children and teaching them true Sacred Music is the way to ensure it happens in the future.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I am convinced, parce Mahrt, that in so many similar situations we (no matter whether one self-identifies as orthodox, RotR, trad, conservative, preservationist, rubricist or retrovist ala my FSSP colleagues, may they and more live long and prosper) who've endeavored towards restoration and genuine understanding and acceptance in our local vineyards, we have self-cornered ourselves into unviability as effectors of a coherent yet varietal music ministry. This predates the current pontificate, IMO. We have so relied upon idealism that has effected an echo chamber/bunker/true believer mentality that we have appeared as intractable puritans (not the classic definition.) If you are personally, I mean to your own convictions, "down with" the remnant, purer church, then accept that your personal marketability will all but personally disappear.
    Ideally, as a director of four parishes, I'd be so down with Little Joe's (Adam Woods') final solution: the Graduale Romanum.
    But it is, one should intellectually be honest, a Utopian solution, nowhere's near a panacea.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Yes, I am directing children's Schola , we have great unbelievable results with parish all choirs.
    P: - We are losing parishioners because of the music.
    Me: -The sacred music that Catholic church used for many centuries?
    P: - They want their songs {from Folk Mass of 70th}.
    Me: Are the parishioners coming and leaving because of a few songs ?
    P: -Those songs are approved by USCCB.
    Me:-Pope Benedict considered such style (70th)as the opposite to sacred.
    P: -We will use it as long as we have it in hymnal.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It's a mistake to think that the songs in hymnals have been approved by the USCCB. The USCCB only cares that the Mass text is printed precisely.

    The statement of approval from the local bishop (from the place where a hymnal is published) may mean only that the text is not explicit heresy. The music might be secular in style. The text might be ambiguous.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    @condorg
    Forgive me if I don't prima facie accept your caricature conversation as exact.
    Do you understand that if you have a command of the breadth of repertoire out there, and can exercise a non-exclusive attitude towards evaluation of said breadth, that only then can you address the simplistic response of your pastor, which I doubt is completely accurate as you report it? This repertoire means from Kindergarten to Advanced Schola. The blatant reality you cite, "I do not care what you think..." from your pastor can only be successfully mitigated by your leading him out of his/and attack sheep comfort zone by exhibition of your fully informed knowledge of options. You've painted yourself in the corner. That's irrational. You need to earn trust not by capitulation but by persuasion. And you have to know your sh*t beyond whatever this book or that organization says is "Da Rules." Others here have oft decried me of such pragmatism, but I think in their heart of hearts they know that liturgical paradises cannot be forged without mutual consensus of lay and cleric. If you can't learn to play ball, then by all means follow Ian's advice and look for an FSSP joint. But be aware, they play politics too.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    @Melofluent: I edited all my entree trying to hide my identity. Dialogue is real.
    There is no difference, good or bad priest is forcing good sacred music program to degraded to his favorite few ugly heretical songs .
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    coherent yet varietal


    A desire for variety implies to me that someone wants to be entertained. It's not interesting enough as it is, so more variety is demanded.

    he allowed me a lot - Propers, good music, Chanting kids till he became aware that ANY natural change of demographic or seasonal attendance or even cataclysmic changes in area jobs market- he really sure that the High Music that is so annoying him personally, would be the only reason of collection' reactions.


    Something very similar happened to me, only it started with a disagreement over Latin in the liturgy. When I began my employment, the priest allowed Latin, but after about a year or so, he completely banned it. Then, after that, he didn't want to hear any suggestions regarding what we would term Sacred Music. I even tried to water it down a bit, by suggesting very simple changes (SEP, Communion only, followed by familiar hymn, everything still in English, etc.) He just simply wouldn't hear of it. He even told me face to face: "Nothing too traditional." To this day, I can't figure out what changed his mind. Again, it's really all up to your priest, and for better or worse, it's all completely legitimate per the GIRM. The benefit here is that not all priests are the same, and some will permit more Sacred Music than others. You cannot control what someone else does, but you can control what you do. At the school, we have some very big personalities that attempt to usurp authorities that they do not have the right to. Sometimes, younger teachers will approach me about these types of situations and this is the advice they get from me: ask yourself this question: "What are you going to do?" This is really the only question you can ask, because you cannot in any way force another person to do anything. So, in these types of situations, ask yourself that question: "What are you going to do?"
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Famous blind French organist had heart attack and never recovered at 70th.The "blended" music , the genocide of catholic music heritage.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    There are aspects to your story that would be a flag that you may benefit from in-person counseling - both in terms of professional development and managing frustrated aspirations.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    @Liam: the honest musician actually should be in that situation- yes,to have a heart attack, to need the counseling : you would not cross your own ideals and your work that you did with all your beliefs and all your being.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    I am not talking about mental illness. I was specific to professional development and managing frustrated aspirations. Quite different. Many many people in mid-life who started in a career and found themselves dead-ended can relate. But the internet is typically a bad place to explore profitably in this regard.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    There is no any "frustrated aspiritaions" . I simply can not hear or play what is just so ugly in all ways as typical 70th nonsense that still use 99% of Catholic churches. It is not "mid life crisis" or any other crisis.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    An old expression, if you don't mind. Don't saw the limb in half that you are sitting on. Do what you must to stay employed while actively looking for something better. I have no problem taking the devil's money. I can put it to better use than he can. However, it is better to leave on your terms instead of on someone else's.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    It's kind of like being a public school music teacher. One may object with all one's mind, heart and soul to the atheistic, amoral, abysmal, government-controlled education, but one must also eat and feed one's children. As long as one is not directly co-operating with evil, then one's conscience ought to be clear. However, having to do a condom demonstration to sixth graders or teaching the positive values of same-sex relationships is where I'd draw the line as a public school teacher. (My husband who is a music teacher was asked to take over a condom instruction once to fill in for the regular teacher and absolutely refused. Fortunately, they found someone else, but he was ready to go to the mat on that one.)

    I think you need to take a step back if you can and look at things more objectively. You may not be able to play and sing genuinely sacred music, but you are not participating at or facilitating something immoral or evil. You could also with a very clear conscience play the organ and sing at a Protestant church, or play the organ at basketball games. Playing the organ and singing are of themselves pretty much in every situation morally neutral. I really can't think of too many situations where it would actually be a sin to play the organ and sing unless it was at a satanic rite (please excuse the horrible mental image!) so I think you have to think of your organist job as just that: an organist job. Do what your boss tells you during work hours and leave it all there when you're done. Pursue your love of sacred music on your own time, and be glad you don't have to dig ditches or clean toilets for a living. : )

    Prayers for you here that someday soon you will be able to find a more congenial situation that allows you to use your talents in the most creative and satisfying way, but until that elusive "perfect job" appears, I hope you will be able to find a way to survive in your present one.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Edited: it appeared the sacred music program was only repressed because of tensions in parish which had nothing to do with the music ever.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    A desire for variety implies to me that someone wants to be entertained. It's not interesting enough as it is, so more variety is demanded.

    Ian, you've completely misunderstood my linking of coherence with variety. Entertainment is not at all part of that linkage. Variety is broad enough to mean choosing vernacular chant along with Latin chant, "Anglican" hymnody and "Saxon" hymnody, ars nova polyphony and classic Roman, etc. And yes, it can mean a juxtaposition between a chant proper and a Tietze or Pluth setting as well as an ingenius and artful "song" among the dross found in OCP/GIA/WLP books. It is going to be a necessity to be conversant and versatile as we move into the future, or we'll find a lot of us on the wrong side of CDubya's tree branch.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Ah, thank you for the clarification Melo. I mistook it for more of the "variety show" sort of "variety," complete with Stadler and Waldorf types approving or disapproving the presentations.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    It is difficult to teach people if their minds are made up.
    Many of us work with clergy that is not remotely qualified to supervise us, but if you are hoping to have a positive effect on the parish you're playing in it is important to avoid conflict with the pastor if you can. You can't teach anyone if you get yourself fired.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    YMMV, but I did that at my former parish and I found myself ducking the Pastor a lot so I wouldn't have to talk to him. That is clearly a red flag that I needed to resign for my own sake.
  • That is clearly a red flag that I needed to resign for my own sake.


    And for his sanity!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    As it happens, I have visited the parish which the original poster is writing about.

    At the Sunday Mass, the priest's homily consisted of a 17-minute harangue, with a sustained tone of anger throughout, followed by his attempt to sing an inspirational song.

    I get the impression that this is a pastor whose manner drives away parishioners, but who blames everyone else for it: the musicians, the staff, the congregation itself, etc. Probably everyone who works at the parish is suffering from emotional mistreatment.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Wow. I hope to update once again , not soon may be.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Here's my take on this. Because the church is a hierarchical institution, (one of the last true remaining such animals) If you don't work with this in mind, you are sunk. Our pastors, bishops are formed to operate under this paradigm.
    Practically that means:
    1. The pastor is going to want his likes (right or wrong) and preferences, and expect that since he is pastor, he has a right to this.
    2. If you are continually in conflict with the pastor, you will lose.
    3. You cannot 'win' an argument against a pastor. If you win, you will lose.
    Suggestions:
    4. Suggest a compromise. It help is you present a concrete plan. Suggest: Singing the 12 beloved tunes, one a week at offertory, and include better music for the introit/procession. Present a detailed plan on paper. Pastors like a solution that someone has figured out which included their likes. They don't have time to create one.
    6. Aim toward a solution that includes what the pastor wants, but don't give up your ideals. Sometimes advancing Sacred Music in a parish is incremental. And it's more likely to stick if you do it that way.

  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    MFL:
    I enjoy reading your posts just for the writing; like this:
    " we have self-cornered ourselves into unviability as effectors of a coherent yet varietal music ministry. "
  • 1. The pastor is going to want his likes (right or wrong) and preferences, and expect that since he is pastor, he has a right to this.

    And canon law pretty much means that he does have a right to it. Bottom line, it is the pastor who is responsible for what happens. The buck stops with him. His up-lines can write all fine documents they want, his sheep can do all the study they want (in theology, sacred music, finance, plumbing, whatever) - but he's the one who makes the final call.

    Of course a very wise pastor will only rarely make a final call himself.

    But even the wisest has to sometimes. And the ones still learning often make more decisions than their wiser brethren would.

    If you cannot work within the challenges that this setup brings, you should look to work in some other area, because the disciple of the Catholic church is not for you.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Bottom line, it is the pastor who is responsible for what happens. The buck stops with him. His up-lines can write all fine documents they want, his sheep can do all the study they want (in theology, sacred music, finance, plumbing, whatever) - but he's the one who makes the final call.


    This.

    And the ones still learning often make more decisions than their wiser brethren would.


    And This.

    I was just recently thinking on this exact topic: we can have the intellectual discussion on what the right course of action is and how to implement it, but the reality is that if you do not have a priest that will allow it, you're sunk. If he's already made the decision that he won't have any of that "traditional stuff" then you probably won't ever convince him.

    As to the second point: that's very true in any profession, and I've personally seen it in principals and Pastors. The wise ones know when to get out of the way, and let employees do their jobs. (I worked for a priest once that basically made all of my decisions for me, and then later indicated that if he was doing all the work, he didn't need a music director).
  • To paraphrase Margaret Thatcher: "Being in charge is like being a lady. If you need to tell people that you are, then you really aren't."
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    As it happens, I have visited the parish which the original poster is writing about.

    At the Sunday Mass, the priest's homily consisted of a 17-minute harangue, with a sustained tone of anger throughout, followed by his attempt to sing an inspirational song


    I'm curious now. What was the harangue about? I'm not opposed in principle to the occasional harangue if it is Gospel-centered, and I suppose not even opposed to anger as long as it is righteous anger as opposed to deadly sin wrath. I suspect your meaning to be it wasn't any of my caveats. If my suspicion is correct and the pastor is a giant dictator (charity obligates me to add the "tator") then the op's options are severely limited to waiting out or getting out. The good news in that case is that most pastors are not like that.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    @PaxMelodious. EDITED .
    RE
    "If you cannot work within the challenges that this setup brings, you should look to work in some other area, because the disciple of the Catholic church is not for you."
    In reality, let say, pastors X, Y, Z pretty often are not very well understand the doctrines. For example, it was on USCCB web the lyric of Methodist musician attributed to either of Therese "Christ has NO body...but YOURS...". What about basic doctrines? Eucharist? Is it YOURS Body? Etc.
    Do many of priests know what first year child studying music knows? Do majority of clergy knows what the organ registration is ?
    Good luck to follow to someone ignorant and it is same if you are under the care of surgeon who never learned 4 classes of elementary school . That absurd of following after the unqualified church servants...is a devil.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    @Scott_W :
    All possible harangues are always the same and same everywhere and are not the business of the musician, I would love to stay at music point. The "heresies" or anything that is not music suppose to be taken care as Administrator of sire expressed, by USCCB.



  • I have found that whenever I am convinced that a problem has no solution, there is no solution.

    Interpret that statement as you will.

    It is a comment about nothing other than my own experiences, possibly helpful to others, possibly not.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    By my comment about hierarchy, I was not necessarily saying that the structure of the church is worse or better than other institutional structures. I would imagine that being in the corporate world may be more difficult, I do not know. The church has it's own way, and one must realize that.
    Another thought is, the church is relatively new at hiring and employing lay people. If you think about it, most 'jobs' in the church were filled by clergy or nuns- education, administration, music too. Only in the last few generations (particularly since Vat II and rise of the significance of the laity) have lay people been employed in great numbers. This is a new paradigm, and I sense sometimes is an awkward fit. For example: vowed religious are expected to pledge obedience in all they do, and obey the instructions re assignments and work, but in what sense are lay people expected to do so?
  • For example: vowed religious are expected to pledge obedience in all they do, and obey the instructions re assignments and work, but in what sense are lay people expected to do so?


    There probably are differences of various sorts, though I don't quite see how they would be relevant to performing the job of a music director. On the other hand, there are always exceptions to the obligation of obedience, even for vowed religious. (If Abbot John instructs Brother Ben explicitly to commit a sin, Brother Ben is not obligated to obey, even though he has a prima facie obligation to obey the Abbot's directives.)

    On the third hand, the following advice (from here) seems quite pertinent and sound to me:

    Certainly, and not only in the developed world, the days are past when a priest was the exclusive source of doctrinal information. Today, most educated Catholics can find out for themselves what the Church teaches or regulates on any topic.

    Yet this extra knowledge should be an aid to mutual understanding rather than a weapon of discordance and the attitude should always be one of construction rather than confrontation.


    In any case, the music director, whether vowed religious or lay, is clearly under the purview of the pastor as regards performance of duties specifically related to his or her role as music director, and that's as it should be.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    [In a courtroom a lawyer only asks questions to which he already knows the answer.]
    [True story, I knew the parties.]

    After a Mass a parishioner approached an organist
    and provided much critique.

    At some point the organist slid off the bench,
    motioned to it, and said:
    "Thank you! Would you care to show me?"

    The parishioner provided a compact verbal excuse and escaped.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    (Edited): That was not "fiction".
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm sorry, this whole encounter whether verbatim or paraphrased is hyperbolic. No priest, especially were he infallible, would scream into a microphone essentially "Stop! Do it my way!" I do have one retired Spanish-speaking priest who would do such, but the poor old guy is a curmudgeon and is tolerated by all simply because of his length of service. Again, IF YOU KNOW YOUR SH*T, and you have some measure of decorum, none of this drama is de rigueur/Standard Operating Procedure (SOP.) You must know and be able to delicately retort to any pastor is "I've forgotten more about this stuff than you'll ever learn, I hope you'll soon recognize this." Call them on their clerical BS, I don't care if they're "All are welcome guys" or "I want Proper processionals at all 15 weekend Masses." You have to be able to diplomatically convey to these dudes (my, the analogy between newbie priests of any stripe would be the Dude Ranch)- "Look, the Liturgy is not some sort of smoothie that you or me can just concoct in our blenders and assume what works for my metabolism will work fer ever'body! Padre, the Church measures time in decades, centuries and eras. Chill, dude." And if anyone is actually wondering, I've said as much to many pastors, and never been dismissed.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I've said as much to many pastors, and never been dismissed.


    Yes, I was wondering, and yes, I'm very impressed at the result. I have the feeling that if I'd done that at my previous parish, I would have been shown the door.


  • I once knew an organist whose priest (a Dominican here in Houston whose idea of liturgical music was harmless and soothing background 'music') actually went up to the choir gallery one day and proceeded to make a list (he knew nothing of music or organs, but just experimented around with the stops of the 15 or so rank Pilsher [which has been replaced by a rogers simulacrum]) of what stop, mostly the melodia, to play for very precise lengths of time (down to the seconds) at given points of the liturgy by his unfortunate organist, who was a friend of mine. Such exercise of authority in an area in which such a man is objectively incompetent to exercise it is very, very far from unique in the Church.

    We are taught that 'obedience' is a great spiritual gift, a virtue from the practice of which one reaps great spiritual rewards. This may be so. Often it is, and I think that most of us would admit to having grown through the practice of it. There is, even, a joyful, even liberating aspect to it - not always, but sometimes. Indeed, we can be thankful that there exists in this world the love of God in the Church with which he has blessed us, and to which we may be obedient - thankful, too, that we ourselves are not our sole guide and authority, that we are servants of something and SomeOne larger than ourselves, i.e., 'that we are very members incorporate in the mystical [Body of Christ], which is the blessed company of all faithful people, and are also heirs...' (BCP-BDW). Other, though, of the less touted (and less benign) lessons we learn from 'faithful' obedience is exactly what manner of narcissism, paranoia, egomania, selfishness, plain old childishness and immaturity, ecclesiastical snobbery and hauteur, duplicity, shocking cultural lacunae in education, and institutionalised ignorance is characteristic of quite too many of those to whom we are expected to be obedient, who are so wanting in character that they have no business ever having been set to rule over people. (It also says something about those who choose them, 'educate' them, and ordain them; and, it speaks volumes about what their superiors actually think of you and me.) Are we supposed to be so gullible as to believe that these men heard a voice from on high whilst in entranced prayer, telling them to prohibit chant, or to forbid Latin, to prefer pianos and combos over organs, or to make an Ed Sullivan show of their liturgy, and on and on? The simple truth is that no, they didn't, not at all; they do as they do because pleases them (or their favourites, or those people whom they don't want to offend), even though it is often the very opposite of what the Church teaches, has commanded or commended; none of which the Church has given them authority to do (the Church actually only gives authority to do as it wills and teach as it teaches - authority to do otherwise does not exist). They do as they do because it pleases them so to do (to which the pleasure in being obeyed must surely be as the icing on the cake). Leaders who are small men must and will be surrounded by small people. Leaders who are mature and large men will both expect and cultivate a mature largeness and professional authenticity in their retinue. In closing, I wish to salute, pray for, and learn from those multitudes of priests who do not fit those described above. I praise God for their sanctity - for their genuine love and maturity. (I also wish to pray for those who are described above.)
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Sorry. @melofluent. it is not verbatim or paraphrased or hyperbolic, priest just exactly that very way: to scream into a microphone essentially "Stop! Do it my way!".it is at least not first priest that I met/my teachers met who really "do it my way" while even not to sure by himself what his way is.(..) It is ok though, to have no understanding at forum:-.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    Please understand that it is important discussion.
    I am agree with many points, absolutely.
    The harangue of Pastor or any clergy I am according to all rules can not even discuss.
    My desperation was about the music.
    If to add the lyrics of Haas/Schutte/etc to Bach/Mozart/Schubert tunes- would it bother me?
    Actually not as much comparing to
    if to add the Scripture in its purity to TUNES of Haas/Schutte/.
    The priest is NOT a bad person, not even much different with 99% of priests.
    It is non of my business his sermons/interacting with parish.
    What I posted as question: the great sacred music program was created. Was existed.
    Only the great hymns according to your forum and the church rules. The children Schola, the glorious Choral music with orchestra (once again, I can send as a personal email the link to recordings to prove it). It was reversed recently to 70th with a motivation that parish is shrinking because is deprived of a few songs.
    There is no way back, but it is ruining of what was done.
    The priest has personal excuses of his delinquencies, and believe me, he is not a bad guy. He would not harm me, he is just doing what doing all priests. it was again never of my intruding in his area of expertise while he was just same Folk Mass dictator with a microphone as a weapon of dictating "his view". You all know, the Priest can say," find another employment, i have a different view on music program at my church"
    Now. I stumbled upon the "songs that everyone knows" or "should know" in the average American/Anglophone parish."
    http://musicgiftofgod.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-team.html
    where together with Now Thank We All Our God and For All The Saints-

    I am The Bread
    Turn to me
    Christ Be Our Light
    The Summons

    And it is same as doing priest. "Blending" a great heritage with nonsense.
    What is look for all or many of you just innocent nostalgic sentiment with using those songs, in reality is just messing the atmosphere and mystery of the Mass.
    please, all irony, stones at me. Just I see the basic misunderstanding here as well. Thank you.
  • condorgcondorg
    Posts: 18
    @melofluent . I do not feel the particular priest is the rare exception from the rule. He does all songs in his own way and it is very typical way for guitar Mass, Family Mass etc; changing 4/4 March into 3/4 slow blues (that is so typical because of need somehow to strum), adding, stretching or stressing bars etc- very typical for guitar Mass where the leader just learning by rote and then "leading " by voice the entire assembly. What so confused you: I met it as a very typical reaction of one who strummed the guitar in church and was "the leader of the song",so had a years to lead by mic. amplified voice.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    condorg has indeed where the harangue is coming from: apparently the priest moralizes a lot.

    To describe it in the nicest way possible, the priest was exhorting the faithful to live out the prophetic dimension of the lay vocation in confrontation with modern-day socio-political errors which were being promoted by certain actions of the national government. That's not a bad thing to talk about occasionally, but he maintained a relentless tone of anger throughout his talk, which left the congregation fatigued rather than encouraged.

    Then he sang a patriotic song, accompanying himself at an electronic piano. Few of the congregation joined him. His blues-influenced playing was not accompaniment for a congregation, but for a solo performer. Also, the song was a poor choice: even today, I doubt that congregations in the southern states warm up to "The Battle Hymn of the Republic", a Civil War song of the North and of the Union. The priest is from another part of the country, and probably never thought that the song might actually be somewhat annoying.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    and probably never thought that the song might actually be somewhat annoying.


    There's your problem: knee-jerk reactions and pre-packaged liturgy.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Then he sang a patriotic song, accompanying himself at an electronic piano.


    Nauseating and downright purgatorial for anyone having to suffer it. My sympathy and my prayers for this parish.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    1- I don't speak with clerics using the same language and tone as above. But I am consistently not shy about addressing concerns. For example, I have a liturgy meeting this morning. I requested "homiletics" be added to the agenda.
    2- I take no pride in never having been dismissed. But I could not live with myself if I cowered to a clergyman who personally demeaned me fulfilling my duties.
    3- I appreciate Chonak's clarification. I believe that either by reputation or encounter at an interview both the musician and the cleric(s) should be capable of getting a good read on whether that chemistry has possibility in terms of relationship success or toxicity.
    4- Were I to ever encounter a celebrant doing the sorts of things condorg describes as having literally occurred, a dialogue Mass would ensue that he wouldn't expect.
    5- On the rare occasion I've encountered actual clericalist abuse at a Mass while on vacation, ie. political exhortation, made up prayers including the Euch. Prayer, no Credo, yada yada, I have waited after Mass and informed said celebrant that by his errors of commission he does injury to his parishioners, the Church and the priesthood. Then I walk away.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Your tact and professionalism are admirable and worthy of imitation, melo. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
    Thanked by 1melofluent