The Hymnal 1940 for an EF Parish
  • And - three cheers for ACH HERR, DU ALLERHOCHSTER GOTT (really grand!)
    And - three laments for the absence of DULCE CARMEN (good-bye to Alleluya.)

    By the way - if this new hymnal project goes forth I want ST ALBINUS (Jesus lives! Thy terrors now) to be in it.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Every Sunday Last before Ephphany, we sing "Alleluia, song of gladness" from the 1940 Hymnal. It's quickly become one of the highlights of the year!
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,499
    We sing the original text, Alleluia Dulce Carmen, on the Sunday before Septuagesima each year.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • BGP
    Posts: 210
    Wow this thread is out of control.

    I know this is the wrong place for this but I would like to understand this ...
    "Calvin's Institutes (which are actually closer in many ways to the Catholic tradition than the far more radical theology of Luther). "
    Double predestination/limited atonement, that God creates people with the intention of damning them, forever, to his glorify himself is not taught by Lutherans, It's in my opinion quite radically against the central principles of Christianity and Catholic theology.
    How is Calvinism closer to Catholicism than Lutheranism?
    (there is also the whole issue of the undivided being divided when the Father poured out his wrath and turned his back on the Son: and I think objectively one can argue these ideas are outside of orthodox Christianity)

    Again sorry I know this is the wrong place, It's just I don't understand that statement.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 268
    I don't want to derail this thread further from important topics like typefaces, but since it is my comment about Calvin that has occasioned such distress, I'll say briefly that it is particularly Calvin's views on sanctification and the third use of the Law that I had in mind, contrasted with the almost antinomian position that Luther takes (at least on occasion--inconsistency being perhaps his saving grace). But on double predestination, a Catholic has to reckon with statements by Aquinas like the following:
    God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others…. Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. Hence Augustine says, ‘Why he draws one, and another he draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.' (ST I.23.5 ad 3)

    This is not exactly double predestination, but it should be close enough to give any Catholic pause before condemning Calvin as anti-Christian.

    I'll let Dave Armstrong make the case for other catholic elements in Calvin.
  • BGP
    Posts: 210
    I Was not so much distressed as confused but thanks that sheds some light.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,781
    The other way Calvinism is more like Catholicism is that it has more of the complete-system feel than Lutheranism (which, of course, has a considerable system of its own, but not quite that feel). Not surprising given there was a French lawyer involved.
  • Gavin -
    I think that thou meanest ye Sunday last before Ash Wednesday. (?)

  • Jackson, doesn't the Alleluia disappear on Septuagesima, so one would have to use a hymn with "Alleluia" on the last Sunday after Epiphany....
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,437
    ...Except if you belong to/work for a Church where Septuagesima-tide has been suppressed. (E.g. Everywhere except for in the EF and Anglican Use.)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • I served a large and prominent Lutheran church for fifteen years beginning in 1969 and always stressed to them that they had much more in common with Catholics and Anglicans than other Protestants. Being careful not to proselytise, I did my best to infuse them with a true Luther Lutheranism, which was very difficult. While not preserving the tripartite hierarchy of The Church, they never-the-less had a far more nearly orthodox theology of the Blessed Sacrament than any other Protestant body (except the Anglicans, whose tent accommodates everything from a Calvinistic to an ultra-Catholic belief about the same [it is unfortunate that, while the BCP makes clear that what is done, believed, and remains is the objective presence of our Lord, many explain it away and refute it]) and, in places can yet be found amongst very 'high-church' Lutherans whose theology varies little (but it is an important 'little') from orthodox realities. One cannot say this of Calvinists-Presbyterians, who have a strictly memorial stance (and even use grape juice instead of wine) about the eucharist, no semblance of apostolic order in their structure, and amongst whom there is not so much as a vestige of the forgoing; quite the contrary, an adamant refutation of them.

    Luther's doctrine of the eucharist was that Christ was objectively present 'in, with, and under' the species of bread and wine, which species remain bread and wine. This effectively means that while Jesus is objectively, substantially, present, so also are the substances of bread and wine. Further, amongst some Lutherans is the curious belief that, while Jesus is objectively present in the sacrament during 'mass', that presence is there only in the context of the 'mass'. Such Lutherans may be found pouring, shall we say, what was the Blood of Christ back into the wine bottle after the service because Jesus is no longer in it, the service, the 'mass' being over.

    This is a curious attempt, it seems to me, to sort of straddle the fence; but there is no parallel even of attempted orthodoxy in other Protestant communities. There are, too, some Lutherans who, though they have not maintained an apostolic hierarchy, never-the-less maintain that in certain of their pastoral 'lineages' it has been preserved. Such niceties are entertained by very high church Lutherans, and are of no concern to most.

    Too, and this may yet hold in places, but up until recent times Lutherans were not permitted to receive Holy Communion without first going to confession. Formal records are/were kept of who went and how often to confession and Holy Communion. Laxity in this regard would invite pastoral attention and counsel.

    Lutheran pastors regularly (at least once a year) visit the homes of and have genuine relationships with all their people, always visit the sick, infirm, or hospitalised; something that Catholic pastors are not typically concerned to do.
  • Thanks for the comments about Lutheranism (about which I am largely ignorant, I admit).

    ...always visit the sick, infirm, or hospitalised; something that Catholic priests are not typically concerned to do

    I'm in not position to assess the typicality of this lack of concern, but out of love of (many of) the priests in my vicinity, I'll mention that they are quite concerned about these things (and act accordingly).
  • One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the bishop has to approve the music used in the diocese. The USCCB has approved certain hymnals and the music therein. However, the local bishop has the authority to approve or deny approval of any piece of music. Moderntrad should contact the chancery and find out if this book is allowed by the bishop. If it isn't, then this entire topic is moot.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    The USCCB has said that things approved by one bishop are approved for all --- sort of a mutual understanding thing. Use of the 1940 has presumably been approved by the Ordinary for the Anglican Use, as well as the bishops in the territorial dioceses where it is used.
    Thanked by 2Gavin moderntrad
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,574
    This EF parish needs a hymnal because ___ .

    This EF parish needs this hymnal because ___ .
  • Michael -
    Perhaps I overstated. I hasten to clarify that in no way did I mean that Catholic priests were unconcerned for their sick and infirm. Far from it. What I wanted to stress was that there is a strong tradition amongst Lutheran clergy to make their house calls and visitations with all their flock periodically. I don't think that this has a corollary amongst us Catholics - but do stand to be corrected.
    Thanked by 1MichaelDickson
  • My (limited) experience has been that it depends on the size of the parish. I suspect that this difference (if it is real and not a figment of my idiosyncratic experience) is not, or not entirely, practical. I also detect that in very large parishes the relationship between the priest and his flock 'feels' more anonymous. (There are likely always exceptions, of course, both at the level of parishes and at the level of individual members of a given parish.)
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,110
    From David Andrew: I seem to recall Newman was kind of an important figure in the Catholic Church as well.
    I like this!
    BTW I belive that possibly the St. Michael hymnal may be the closest modern hymnal to the 1940. I mean for Catholic hymnals.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,110
    bhcordova: I don't see what use calling the chancery would be. I can guarantee thay would never have heard of the hymnal.
  • About Newman -
    I read somewhere, years ago, that Newman was once walking about with his bishop (this was after he had crossed the Tiber), and the excellency made some disparaging remark about 'the faithful', to which Newman responded, 'we would be pretty ridiculous without them, wouldn't we'. I've seen scant evidence that holy orders transforms most men into paragons of sanctity, an altruistic step or two or three above the rest of us in love and selflessness. There are, though, those rare ones whom one meets now and then who seem to be all but a vision of the divine. Too many, though by not any means all, but too many, love nothing more in heaven or in earth than their precious 'authority'. (And, for too many more, they live as though their authority somehow trumped that of popes and oecumenical councils! [which is sheer madness and tyranny!] Oh, how the disobedient do love to be obeyed!).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,034
    Having met numerous clergy and religious order folks, I have concluded a couple of things.

    1. If you put a pig in a habit, you still have a pig.

    2. Wearing a habit or clerical garb does not cure incompetence or the lack of noticeable ability.
  • bhcordova: I don't see what use calling the chancery would be. I can guarantee thay would never have heard of the hymnal.

    They might not have heard of it, but I the DM for the diocese could check it out easily enough and get back to you about it.
  • Really, this criticism of the 1940 is beneath all of us.

    If there was a hymnal since then in the Anglican, Episcopal or Roman church that even came close to rivaling it, then knocking anything about it then might be acceptable.

    When you have a Mass from the 1940 that is currently being sung in Catholic churches in 2015...doesn't that alone cause us to genuflect...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    Really, this criticism of the 1940 is beneath all of us.

    Commenting on fonts is never beneath me.
    Thanked by 2Liam moderntrad
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,797
    There is very little in the 1940 Hymnal which is not also in some hymnal published for Catholic churches. If someone wants to research that question, can tell you which hymns are published in which hymnals.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • I hate to admit it Noel -
    but there are things in the 1940 that are an embarrassment. We know what they are and have from of old known to avoid them. There is, though, far less social-issue and trendy PC stuff in it than in Worship IV.
    One of my less favourite... no, not 'less favourite', but outright don't likes is a harmless old spiritual song called 'Jesus calls us o'er the tumult of our life's wild restless sea'. An old friend of mine decades ago used to re-name the tune, 'Galilee', 'Ass's Bray' because of the rather awkward down-and-up shape of the melody's first few bars. Why this hymn is in there has always been beyond me - I (happily) never heard anyone, high-church or low, sing it. While there is really nothing at all wrong with the sentiments it expresses there is just something off-putting about it. And, it's the sort of 'spiritual song' that should never be sung at mass.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 733
    With due and genuine respect -
    It seems to me that you are bending over backwards and with relish, even, to discredit any expression of Truth that wasn't actually penned by a practicing Catholic

    This particular statement immediately made me think: yes! because for some reason people seem to LOVE Thomas Tallis, even though (to me) much of his music isn't especially moving, especially with the very Protestant (at least literally in text/translation, if not in gist/feel-good nature of the) text.

    And to stay in context of the thread (rather than to seemingly just dis Tallis) one of our parishes in our Latin Mass community has a whole bunch of the St. Edmund Campion missals. I think they are very nice. We sing at least 2 hymns out of them at (not during) each EF Mass. I give a little 1/2-page program with the pp for the Ordinary chant, hymn numbers, written propers, etc.(all from St. Edmund Campion missal), as well as an image of the Alleluia+jubilus (this is the only musical proper they see). It is extremely handy, and it's nice to not have multiple books for parishioners to juggle.
    I've also seen (prior to this missal/hymnal) hymns printed and handed out, but this 1 loose-leaf + missal is still much easier than having to figure out if you are looking in the correct book at any given time.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,130
    Why this hymn is in there has always been beyond me - I (happily) never heard anyone, high-church or low, sing it. While there is really nothing at all wrong with the sentiments it expresses there is just something off-putting about it. And, it's the sort of 'spiritual song' that should never be sung at mass.

    We have a sister parish in Kentucky, and the pastor of that parish visits us a few times a year. During one of his guest homilies, he told us that there are still parishes in the south where "segregated" masses are not uncommon. (Not enforced, of course, but by "mutual understanding")
    Might it be possible that such songs were put in the hymnal for "those masses"?
    This is rather deeply troubling to me, on more than one level.

    First, GALILEE (for whatever one thinks of its worthiness as a hymn tune) has long been associated with "Jesus calls us" and was in The Methodist Hymnal at least 8 years before it was in The Hymnal 1940. The tune is by the Victorian English organist & composer W(illiam) H Jude (1851-1922), who was quite well known in his time. It happens to be the second of two tunes given for "Jesus calls us" in The Hymnal 1940, and I'm not sure which has been more prevalent amongst Anglicans. But GALILEE has been the only tune for "Jesus calls us" in The Methodist Hymnal through all of its versions (1932, 1964, 1989), and I sang the hymn, growing up as a Methodist, many, many times, and also when I was in graduate school singing in an Episcopal church. Angular tune, yes. Victorian tune, yes. Sung with gusto, yes. My favorite, no, not by a long shot. I really don't care for it, but I grew up with it.

    Second, The Hymnal 1940 was not intended solely for Mass (The Holy Communion), but was also a hymnal for use at Morning & Evening Prayer. That said, "Jesus calls us" is listed in the Liturgical Index of The Hymnal 1940 as being appropriate for the General hymn at The Holy Communion on Trinity V as well as on St Andrew's Day, where it is also given for the General hymn at Morning Prayer.

    Third, to speculate on 'the notion that "such songs were put in the hymnal for "those masses"' (not sure whether one means "Masses" or "masses") is something that strikes me as out of place. I'm older than the vast majority of people that participate in this forum and suspect that most of you do not have all the same awareness of church music in the 1940s & 50s that I have, even if mine was principally Methodist and Episcopalian, with a smidgeon of Catholicism thanks to my (still living at 94) aunt who converted in the 1940s.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • This EF parish needs a hymnal because ___ .

    This EF parish needs this hymnal because ___ .

    1. Every church needs hymnal. Congregational singing is a beautiful thing, and shouldn't be overlooked. We have a copy of the Edmund Campion Hymnal and Missal, but its contents are limited, and I, personally, love a hymnal with 4 parts to be sung by the congregation.

    2. I guess we don't need it, however, it was in the running because I can get it for the cost of shipping alone, and we are a parish with limited means, and little support from the Chancery.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,034
    2. I guess we don't need it, however, it was in the running because I can get it for the cost of shipping alone, and we are a parish with limited means, and little support from the Chancery.

    Go for it and enjoy singing from it. What's the difference in using a good collection of hymns under one cover, and printing handouts every week? Handouts don't have any high degree of holiness or special status. In your situation, if I could get those hymnals for shipping costs, I would do it.
  • Congregational singing which supplants the Mass -- i.e., which creates singing at Mass, instead of singing the Mass is bad at Mass. When the singing is not supposed to be of of the Mass, the situation is different.

    To have an effective use of a hymnal, though, requires a more full liturgical life than merely the Mass.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,437
    CGZ: I think we all agree with you: Sing the Mass, not just at Mass, and hymns should never substitute for the Propers, but I don't think he's talking about replacing the Offertorium with a hymn, here. It is perfectly licit and, in my opinion, praiseworthy, to sing a hymn before Mass, i.e. as a processional before the 'Asperges' and/or after Mass, as a recessional. Now, there may be reasons why one prefers an organ Processional or Recessional/Postlude instead of a hymn, but hymns are an option. In this instance there is nothing of the Mass which can be sung. Of course, when the 'Asperges' does not precede Mass, then it would be best to simply sing the Introit as the processional.

    And, as far a Low Mass is concerned, hymns at Low Mass is a custom in many places.
    Thanked by 1moderntrad
  • Well, one could sing the Introit during the procession...but I am open to a hymn, especially on Sundays when the Asperges precedes the Mass.
  • This post often pops up when I do a google search for various and sundry things, and I still love reading through it.

    I figured I would give an update for those who care: we did end up putting the '40 in a pews, with the pastor's approval. His words: The Ordinariate is Catholic, and I don't ever want to treat them as if they weren't, much like we are treated by the mainstream Church because of our devotion to the Latin Mass.

    We didn't tear any pages out. Instead, we put a sticker explaining our reasoning for choosing this particular hymnal - namely, that it is Catholic due to its adoption by the AO, and that we hope it would be a tool of evangelization. The sticker conveniently covers the byline about it being for use in the PECUSA. The congregation was, at first, wary, but actively use the book currently. We stay away from problematic hymns (I don't think my pastor cared for "A Mighty Fortress" haha), and use what is good, true, and beautiful from it. We sing processional (we have an Asperges every Sunday) and recessional hymns, and supplement, when needed, using an Order of Music given to the congregation for each Sunday and major feast.

    The congregation sings the ordinary with the choir (mostly the Kyrie, Gloria, and Credo), and introducing the hymnal to the pews didn't deter them from that (surprise!). We still sing full Gregorian propers, and even have a daily Missa Cantata, so the addition certainly hasn't deterred from the music proper to the Mass. All in all, I think, it's worked out fairly well.

    Many thanks to those who encouraged me along the way.
  • We still sing full Gregorian propers, and even have a daily Missa Cantata

    Please. Send me directions as to where you are. Pleeeeeease.