Moderntrad,

Protestantism (both the modern and the 16th century versions) is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Therefore, to intentionally use a Protestant hymnal, as such, is to introduce that which is foreign to Catholic faith and worship into it.

If the purpose is to use vernacular hymnody, it couldn't be used from the donning of the chasuble to the Last Gospel.

Ordinariate parishes (like eastern rite parishes) may do things within their rites which are not right or proper, or meet, to use in a Roman Rite parish. Using Aramaic prayers, for example, is right and proper to the Maronite Rite, but not to the Roman.

I'm a convert, and so I grew up using Hymnal 1940, and then Hymnal 1982. Nevertheless, as an organist at an EF Mass, I don't use music from it ___unless the tune or the text is originally from outside of Protestantism.

I would avoid introducing it. Use, instead, whatever is identifiably Catholic and in the public domain.

Hi Chris,

I couldn't agree more with you - much of Protestantism is absolutely not compatible with the Christian Faith. Seeing as much of the contents of the '40 finds it's source in Catholic hymnody, it might be a bit of a stretch to call it "not right or proper, or meet." We might have to avoid a couple of hymns, but don't we have to do that now with (much more of the contents of) Catholic hymnals anyway?

I think a consideration should also be made that the Ordinariate is a part of the Roman Rite of the Church. It's a Use proper to Roman Catholicism. Seeing as that is the case, wouldn't that mean that it might be proper to use within the context of a Roman Mass?

My intention was to possibly use it for entrance and recessional hymns for the congregation to sing. And I can get it for the price of shipping alone - which is a definite consideration for a parish with limited means.

Just some thoughts.

Charles,

If you can get your hands on a source for that approval, I would be forever grateful to you!

All I want is beautiful, good, and true music for the Holy Sacrifice.

Julie, Moderntrad,

I don't doubt that, modernly speaking, the Episcopal ecclesial community has superior resources to those of the major American Catholic publishers. Hands down. That's partly because the American Catholic publishers have (so it seems) sought out mediocrity in music. Only in the Hymnal 1982 did the editors intentionally follow a similar (but not identical) policy.

Nevertheless, I think it imprudent to dabble in Protestant hymnody as such. So, hymns which began life as Catholic hymns can be rescued from their Protestant matrix (or jail cell, if you prefer), and used. Hymns which, due to editors' crayons, have been rendered unintelligible could be restored.

Faith of our ancestral parental units. (Imagine singing "Faith of our Fathers, Mary's prayers shall win all England back to Thee")
Good Christian folks rejoice.
You spectators and you everypersons.

Any hymn from which "thee" and "thou" have been removed.

You spectators and you everypersons.

The problem with hyperbole is that it makes everything TEN BILLION TIMES MORE STUPID.

"Protestantism (both the modern and the 16th century versions) is incompatible with the Catholic faith."

"Therefore, to intentionally use a Protestant hymnal, as such, is to introduce that which is foreign to Catholic faith and worship into it."

The second sentence actually doesn't follow from the first; there are unstated middle terms that are questionable.

"Nevertheless, as an organist at an EF Mass, I don't use music from it ___unless the tune or the text is originally from outside of Protestantism. I would avoid introducing it. Use, instead, whatever is identifiably Catholic and in the public domain."

Your choice, but not what the Catholic Church obliges.

Again, your choice, as the Church does not oblige us to stick to IT to the exclusion of other hymns.

The 1940's use of Latin is macaronic (as in Angels We Have HEard on High) and it does have Sing of Mary (specifically for Annunciation). If memory serves, the 1982 hymnal is more generous.

The 1940 Hymnal has much to commend it, but it wouldn't be my first choice. I merely object to the overkill about it, which is poorer witness than it wishes to be - it begs to be dismissed out of hand.

I hadn't thought of the obvious lack of Marian hymns, however there is the one, and there are several that are included to be used on various Saints' days. If you wanted that in an Anglican Hymnal, you'd probably want to go to Hymns Ancient and Modern, or The English Hymnal - which brings a good point: while The English Hymnal would be cost prohibitive, I could get copies of Hymns Ancient and Modern for about the same rate as the 1940.

Benedict XVI's creation of the Ordinariate kind of made it so that these resources are the patronage of the Church, no?

And if I recall, the conversation began solely about the 1940, and did not include the 1982... if I wanted to sing "I am the Bread of Life," I would just obtain Gather, or something along those lines. It would be nice to expose Catholics to timeless hymns, such as "Praise, my soul, the King of Heaven," and "All hail the pow'r of Jesus' Name," and the like. How can you argue with hymnody like that? I would argue that, while the 1940 is by no means perfect, you have much less to worry about than if looking through a modern Catholic hymnal. And you hyperbole is much more relevant to Catholic hymnals than even to the 1982. The hymnody in the 1982 is still pretty solid... I feel like every time I look at the source of a tune or text I see "tr. Latin," or "Katolischekirche Gesangbuch," (or something like that anyway...) or "St. Thomas Aquinas," and the like! How many of those do you see in Breaking Bread?

I also realize that the Church has an official hymnal... Being an EF parish, we sing from it every Sunday. But if we wanted to leave it at that, we shouldn't worry about singing motets either, right? Or polyphonic Mass settings? I mean... hymn singing is a good thing, right?

Romans 15:9 But that the Gentiles are to glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: Therefore will I confess to thee, O Lord, among the Gentiles, and will sing to thy name.

I suspect one would have to get in touch with the Ordinariate to find the actual approvals for the hymnal. The approvals for the liturgical books came from the CDF and Congregation of Divine Worship.

Some of the attitudes expressed (I shant say which) by some of the persons (I shant say whom) in this conversation remind me of what is known in the geo-political sphere as ethnic cleansing. And, they are just as mean. We are so beyond the 16th and 17th centuries - at least, some of us are.

The Episcopal religion is not an ethnic group - I believe the Church holds it to be either heretical or schismatic.

I don't think the H1940 would be a comprehensive resource of congregational song, of course (and I'd hate to see so many copies mutilated in order to be stuck in the pews). That being said, it is a wonderful collection. Even if you are a purist, it is still a lovely go-to source for "approved" hymn texts unbutchered by the Big Three.

It is, however, devoid of Latin ordinaries, of much Marian music (although I recall 1982 containing some rather striking Marian music that I loved), and in general would not suffice for a congregational songbook, especially in an EF parish.

That being said, I would take advantage of how many of the H1940's contents are in the public domain, and print your own resource for the pews. Use as much of the 1940 as you would like to, incorporate other Catholic music to supplement, put the ordinaries in the front, send it off to your Ordinary, get the stamp, and put it in the pews.

A little pricier, but a good alternative in the same vein, is The Catholic Hymn Book, from the London Oratory.

I would take advantage of how many of the H1940's contents are in the public domain, and print your own resource for the pews.

That's what we do. I make a handout every week with the text of the hymns (from public domain sources), the ordinary of the Mass and the readings, and the notation for the Introit and Communion antiphons.

P.S. For example, this is tomorrow's lineup for our EF Missa Cantata:

Opening: All people that on earth do dwell
Propers from the Graduale Romanum
Mass VII, Missa Rex Splendens
Credo I
Offertory Motet: Ave, Regina Caelorum (Aichinger)
Communion Antiphon: Panem de caelo (with verses)
Communion Motet: Ave, Verum Corpus (Byrd)
Marian Antiphon: Salve, Regina
Closing: Sing we of the Blessed Mother (verses 1, 4)

...which shows you how far from authentic sacred music the publishers have wandered.

I'm going to look into the possibility of getting these for our chapel. It seems to me that if we owe congregational hymn singing to the Protestants (or at least they are the ones who have mastered it and turned it into an art form and therefore worthy to be included in Catholic worship) then we ought to celebrate that fact and give credit where credit is due, in a true ecumenical spirit. After all, any time an organist plays a grand Bach organ prelude at an EF Mass, he's borrowing that from a Protestant composer as well, so what's the difference?

I think you can say that at the time of the Second Vatican Council, the liturgical reformers took it upon themselves to borrow elements from the Protestant liturgical tradition to incorporate into the Roman Rite so they had at their disposal these options:

From the Protestants:
Beautiful, classic, orthodox hymnody
Anemic, mediocre liturgical elements

From the Catholics:
Anemic, mediocre hymnody
Beautiful, traditional, received liturgy

So what did they choose?

I don't think I'm alone in thinking that if they had just borrowed a few Protestant hymns and preserved traditional Catholic worship things might have turned out a lot better all around.

My sincere apologies for popping up again, but it seems to me that the reason our Protestant brothers and sisters created such spiritually and emotionally satisfying, substantive hymns may have been to compensate for their 'skeletal" liturgy, purposely stripped of much of its "Catholic" content. Their hymns became the embodiment of Biblical faith and wisdom and are what sustained them for centuries.

Why isn't that all the more reason to borrow these gems of faith and wisdom if we can and use them to adorn our traditional Catholic liturgy? Why not annex the beautiful, sustaining, satisfying Protestant tradition of hymn singing onto the traditional Catholic Mass? What's not to gain from that? You instantly gain all the wonderful advantages of the Protestant tradition of hymn-singing in addition to all the wealth and grandeur of the traditional Roman rite.

Lol, Salieri!

Like I said before, the question is not the content of the hymns in the 1940 (musically and theologically heads and shoulders above anything else in the vernacular), it's "should we put the hymnal in the pew of a Catholic Church?" That is a whole 'nother issue brothers and sisters!

I have the 1940 on my computer and use its music all the time. But putting an Episcopal hymnal in a Catholic Church can cause issues that perhaps many of you are not thinking about.

Marc,

Probably not, but then it was St. John's Abbey in Collegeville....

But putting an Episcopal hymnal in a Catholic Church can cause issues that perhaps many of you are not thinking about.

That was my main question in all of this. Before the Parish was established as an EF center for the diocese, I printed sheets that had the hymn to be sung on them. But it seems a tad more... what do I mean... like we're established, in that we've put a hymnal in the pews... maybe I'm crazy?

As far as the page to be taken out, it is the title page, which states "THE HYMNAL of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America." We thought, perhaps, that by taking that page out, we might avoid any real issues of confusion or scandal.

It should be said that the congregation does sing the ordinary. We're starting to vary the chant ordinary a tad to teach them new music, so they're not as comfortable as they might be with a hymn. Maybe I'm wrong.

It should also be said that the parish has many Edmund Campion Missals/Hymnals so the body of Marian/Latin hymns that are missing from the '40 are contained there.

Another plus, from my point of view, is that the '40 is in 4 part harmony, which is why I'd like to have another true hymnal apart from the EC Missal. Also, getting our ordinary to put his stamp of approval on anything for us is going to be difficult.

Francis,

Yes, I'll modify my position to agree that the introduction of a Protestant book is a bad idea, not that everything in it must be kept out of Catholic worship.

This really reminds me of the treatment of those who say they are 'open minded and ecumenical'. It usually goes for everyone except the one who stands for what is traditionally Catholic.

Absolutely!

I know of a Catholic parish that put the SSPX hymnal in its pews and printed out a disclaimer sticker that was put on the page where the introduction began that said something like "while ______ parish does not agree with everything written in this introduction, we value this hymnal for its musical excellence."

If one wanted to put the 1940 in the pews of their church, perhaps such a sticker could be created.

Yes, like I have said over and over on this forum, the 1940 is my go to hymnal for VERNACULAR hymnody. The voice leading is impecable, the collection is practically stellar.

BUT

The "author" is a descendant from Cranmer and there is no escaping the fact that the NO is the incarnation of his dreams. If vernacular HYMNS were the only music that was meant to fill the liturgy, you couldn't do better.

But a "hymnal" puts forth a philosophy that hymns is the main thing we should be singing when in reality it is the LAST option of what should be sung at the Mass. (See GIRM)

The primary elements for the congregation are:

1 the dialogues
2 the ordinary
3 hymns

Then the primary elements of the schola/choir/cantorum are:

1 propers (where hymns have usually been sung)
2 polyphony (where hymns have usually been sung)
3 Latin hymns (chant style)

Because the priorities were literally turned upside down over the past decades, (putting hymns as number one and everything else underneath of it) the mentality and philosophy needs to be changed completely.

The concept of a hymnal is on its way out, and the concept of a missal is on its way in as is trending with Bartlett, Ostrowski, Weber, etc.

...yes,
as most the world is stuck
in the hymnal sandwich...
It is our responsibility
(who know the real deal)
to lead them to
the full fledge meal.

Yes Absolutely,