Rubrical Question--Repeating the Lamb of God
  • SJHinSD
    Posts: 6
    Hello Friends,

    Ok, I know this came up before under the previous edition of the Missal and the GIRM but yesterday I was asked by my pastor to repeat Lamb of God while he transfers hosts from a large ciborium to smaller ciboria for distribution (yes, my parish has EMHC's for our OF Masses). I had thought for sure that the CDW had come down on this but my pastor showed me the rubric printed in the Missal allowing for this. I could sure use some insight one whether this is correct. Thanks in advance! ;)
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    You could sing/play extra slow?

    The use of tropes, regardless of whether its legal or not, is a bad idea in the present context. Yes, tropes have been used in previous times. Perhaps we should see the conditions of those times to know how to use tropes properly.

    Here's another idea: use a polyphonic setting.
    Here's another idea: interpolate organ between the iterations of Agnus Dei.
  • SJHinSD
    Posts: 6
    Thanks for the quick response!

    Yes, I can talk to my organist about some interpolation between the iterations and I completely agree that tropes are a bad idea. I wouldn't mind a polyphonic setting but I just introduced a new congregational setting (after using Mueller's wonderful Missa Pro Editione Tertia outside of Lent and Advent for the last couple of years) and would rather not make another change so soon.

    Also, I'd like to clarify that my pastor really tries hard to do everything correctly and so I am asking to help both of us. :)

    Thanks again!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    1) Last year the CDW forbade the use of tropes in the Agnus Dei in the OF, and Sing to the Lord (USCCB) was corrected to reflect that.

    2) The GIRM does permit the first (two) invocation(s), Agnus Dei ... miserere nobis, to be repeated to cover the whole "fraction rite", which in the OF does include preparing the ciboria for communion, the invocation "Agnus Dei ... dona nobis pacem" should only be sung the last time.

    3) I think this is silly: just have several ciboria on the altar with unconsecrated hosts and consecrate them all during Mass - this is what Pope Francis does.

    4) I much prefer the use of organ intonations and interludes to lengthen the Agnus rather that repeating it indefinitely.
  • SJHinSD
    Posts: 6
    Great! Thank you!
  • RomanticStringsRomanticStrings
    Posts: 339
    The CDW said no troping, but you may do more than three Lamb of God's, so long as you only sing "grant U.S. peace" on the last one and the repetition does not unduly prolong the ceremony. If you are accompanying a prolonged fraction, you are not at fault for the length.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    Yes, RomanticStrings is right. The CDW didn't say that you couldn't do "Agnus Dei...miserere nobis" more than twice; they said that if you did it more than twice you could not use a trope ("Jesus, Bread of Life, etc.). So feel free to lengthen it, but don't change the words!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Just use a more emphatic cadence/pedal for the final line.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    SJHinSD, Salieri,

    [opinion warning] I think one reason that tropes have been forbidden is that the alleged tropes wandered all sorts of ways away from the reality of Christ present before us in the Blessed Sacrament; "Jesus wine of peace.....";

    I think another reason that tropes have been forbidden is that the number of cases in which the fraction rite needs to be extended is insufficient to justify granting permission for blanket cases.

    I think a further reason is that bishops want everyone standing around as long as possible but those who wrote the liturgical directive refuse to make people bored at the thought of receiving Holy Communion.

  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Have the organist play a prolonged instrumental introduction
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Do what Benedict's brother did in Cologne. They sang the Agnus Dei with the congregation, but then, prior to adding the communion propers, sang it in Latin...if your priests wants it sung twice, and it is permitted for the use he wants, do a different musical setting the second time - as you said, polyphonic.

    The episcopal choir at Trinity Cathedral used to retire to a side chapel to sing while people received at one time.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Once the Agnus Dei is finished, there should be no music until the completion of the priest's communion. THEN is the correct time to distribute the hosts amongst the ciboria.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    GIRM 86 makes clear that the communion chant is begun while the priest is receiving communion, not after. As far as I can see, the GIRM does not specify when hosts are distributed into different vessels for communion, though it seems to me that the fraction rite is the place it makes the most sense liturgically.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Actually, the OF instruction is that the music begins during the priest's communion and, if memory serves from being corrected about the next point on this very forum (when I had assumed this was a change from preconciliar practice), that is a carryover from the instructions for the solemn high mass in the EF.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    hartleymartin, you're a seminarian down under, right? I have to wonder if you misunderstood the questions at hand. The deacon and Liam have the ritual sequence correctly ordered. The Fraction is not to be confused with the communicating of concelebrants, deacons or EMHC's, and their subsequent reception of ciboria and chalice.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Liam, it could only be a pre-conciliar practice if there was no general Communion at that Mass or even Communion for the deacon and subdeacon. I have a suspicion that Solemn Mass on the major feasts had a general Communion, even if it was for a small number of people.

    The priest receives Communion, and the ministers back away and bow, the subdeacon coming forward to handle the pall. Then they switch for the Confiteor (Solemn High Mass, rubrically speaking, must have this since it follows the Ceremonial of Bishops). After that, the priest recites “Ecce Agnus Dei, &c.” Then Communion is distributed, and the Communion chant can be sung.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Matthew

    Thanks. I couldn't quickly pull up via search function the correction I received here a while back on this point re the EF, but in any event for the OF, the instructions are very clear that the communion antiphon begins during the celebrant's communion, not after it.
  • SJHinSD
    Posts: 6
    Thanks everyone for their input on this!

    I repeated the invocation ending in "have mercy on us" this weekend (along with an extended, improvised introduction to reduce the repeats) and it went well. There were only a few odd looks from the congregation...which I am well used to. ;)
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