“Pay the Cantors”
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    For your consideration: http://on-this-rock.blogspot.com/2015/07/pay-cantors.html?m=1

    I think one aspect of this is that so many are not accustomed to singing the Mass that they object to paying someone. If music is unessential liturgically, why bother paying someone? Or, perhaps its quality and content are the things that do not matter, so long as there is some kind of music on Sundays. Music is at best a support to the Mass, not an integral part that in a sense is the liturgy.

    This, I think, is the paradigm of Amchurch... At the end I start to hint at what the paradigm ought to be.

    As Dr. Mahrt told me, “Well, would you pay a plumber?”
  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    Great points, Matthew. Having been a paid singer in the past, I've gotten my share of grief for taking money to sing at my Catholic Church. Doesn't nearly cover what I pay in student loans for my Master's degree in voice. I actually worked all through my Master's at an Episcopal church which had a much more comfortable relationship with paying singers.

    But what you're addressing here is important. Perhaps in addition to knowing them, there's also the simple fact that the sub-par cantors are there and willing to do it got free, and no one has the time or energy to recruit and train someone else or, God forbid, wants to be asked to do it themselves.

    That, by the way, is my plan for anyone who balks at the cost of my current music program - invite them to come cantor. You know, so they can "really get to know the program." Something tells me that spending a half hour with me working on the Psalm might give them some new appreciation and perspective.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen SarahJ
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    If there is an extremely talented professional plumber who is a parishioner and wants to donate his/her work to do the plumbing at the church, welcome it, thank him/her, and treat them like the amazing budget-savers they are.

    If there is an extremely talented professional vocalist who is a parishioner and wants to donate his/her work to do the singing at the church, welcome it, thank him/her, and treat them like the amazing budget-savers they are.

    If you need to hire a plumber or plumbers to do the important work necessary to keep the pipes working at the church, you should do so.

    If you need to hire a singer or singers to do the important work necessary of keeping the sacred liturgy beautiful and sung, you should do so.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,315
    Indeed, I forgot the practical part. People who sing sacred music love the music and (hopefully) God. That means they take time to practice and sing at Mass, which means passing up better gigs. They have voice lessons and tuition or debt to cover.

    Is that a half-hour setting it to a Liber Usualis tone or actually practicing? Just pointing it takes that long sometimes!
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    Side note: I'm lucky to personally know the priest who writes for this blog. I've organized masses for him before, and yes, he does pay. :)

    This priest has also done a great benefit for his community, music-wise. He's hired a director who has done an outstanding job at utilizing the talent from the local university (my alma mater). If memory serves, they had a concert of renaissance music for Tenebrae last year. So, helping train young musicians for a future in the music ministry of the church. Mind you, this isn't a large-city parish, either. Does it get any cooler than that?
  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    That is cool!

    Another thought about the plumber analogy, which is an excellent way of thinking about the issue but does miss one thing. Unless your congregation is eating an incredibly fiber-rich diet and constantly stuffing the toilets with Charmin, the plumber call is likely a one-time call from the church and one-time tax write-off for the plumber. Expect him to show up with his tools every week at the same time to fix the toilet, at a time he would have to regularly turn down paying work, and he might have a problem with that.
  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    *OR SHE. Gotta be inclusive here.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Rant warning

    Once upon a time the word "man" was understood to be inclusive. Man-eating sharks were not presumed to be safe for ladies and their daughters; "man does not live by bread alone" was not cause to see if women could do so; "Everyman's way of the Cross" didn't leave out half of the population. Then, suddenly, someone (and it's lost to the mists of history who this person is) decided that "man" could be only descriptive of male persons (and thus "policeman", "fireman", "postman", and such were presumed to be designed as words to prevent equality among men and women). The situation became positively comical when "chairman" and "spokesman" were deemed sexist, leading to the positively infelicitous 'chairperson' and "spokesperson". Even in all-male organizations, officer holders became "chairpersons" and those responsible for coordinating activities became "pointpersons" (to it's credit, the program I'm using to type this response doesn't accept "pointpersons").

    And bureaucratese evolved to an entirely new level of circumlocutorially loquacious gibberish.
  • Chris is spot on!
    In fact, the Anglo-Saxon 'man' means a human being. 'Woman' is the word signalling a female, and 'were' is the word signalling a male. This word 'were' survives in modern speech only in reference to one rather bizarre sort of 'person' encountered in horror movies and east European folklore. Can anyone identify this unique relic? Chris is further spot on in that there is hardly anyone more paranoid and irrational than those gender idiots who, in apparent denial of the reality (and necessity) of gender, want to erase all reference to it in the public forum and the Church's texts, and, laughably, would have us believe that, mere physical endowments aside, women and weres are (other than both being man) the same.
  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    Oh, you guys. Taking everything so seriously. Although to be fair, I didn't say "plumberman" I used "he" and "him" as a pronoun referring to the plumber. Girls can be plumbers, and I assume some are. I don't think it's overly PC to note that, or approaches the ridiculousness of fire persons and chairpersons or means that the person noting the difference is rallying their Bishop for inclusive, gender-neutral language.

    I really was being mostly facetious, which reads soooo well over the internet (almost as well as sarcasm). But point taken.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Hildegard, as I now self-identify as a "gal," please use that assignation when you address the "guys." Please also avoid "doll, ma'am, girls, as those have specific insinuations, and I know I'm just a gal (but I can say "No!" Thank you, Charles in CenCA.)
    Hildegard, purple letters = humor in CMAA Land.
  • I intuited that you were not one of those, but couldn't resist hopping on to what Chris had started (which is a serious concern). Anyone named Hildegard is worthy of respect. Do you wear your hair in convoluted Nordic braids?

    Speaking of women: I am reading a fascinating book about the eucharist in mediaeval spirituality and sensuous awareness, as well as with parallels to that ill-fated bite by Adam's wife, Eve. I commend this sensitive tome to all who are in love with the Blessed Sacrament. The authoress is a devout Catholic and is a professor of English at Purdue with some other tantalising mediaeval and classical titles to her credit. The book is Eating Beauty: The Eucharist and the Spiritual Arts of the Middle Ages, by Ann W. Astell (Cornell University Press, 2006, ISBN 13:978-0-8014-1.)
  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    "Do you wear your hair in convoluted Nordic braids?"

    No, but I may try that when contract negotiations come up.

    And believe it or not, I've lurked back far enough to be aware of the purple! You guys and dolls have some pretty helpful threads on here.
  • Hildegard,

    I hoped that you were being silly. I'm glad that you weren't serious -- because I know some people (personally) who wouldn't have been kidding at all.

    I'm glad that Jackson sees the concern I raise in my rant as a serious concern. I think it matters at several levels. First, when language becomes the tool only of the terrorists, the rest of us lose the ability to convey reality. Second, to borrow an idea from Fr. Fessio, English (in its current state of illness) is not well adapted to creating things of beauty, but it should be!!!!

    When I was an undergraduate, a friend and I developed a replacement for the offensive word "man". Note carefully the process.

    Man
    Human
    Humankind
    Hupersonkind (can't use "man")
    Phylpersonkind (can't use "Hugh!; Philip or Phyllis .......?)
    Phylperchildkind (can't use "son"!)
    Phylperchildindifferent (otherwise we're being judgmental)


    Just imagine how much more felicitous our proclamation of the Creed could be:

    Was incarnate of the Holy Spirit
    out of the Virgin Mary
    and was made Phylperchildindifferent.

    It practically rolls off the tongue!


  • Hildegard
    Posts: 30
    It's practically German!
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  • Or, perhaps its quality and content are the things that do not matter, so long as there is some kind of music on Sundays. Music is at best a support to the Mass, not an integral part that in a sense is the liturgy.
    Cantoring could be sort of a third-order sort of thing for people who are talented and devoted to study and continued improvement at mastering the skill.

    Cantoring would be greatly improved if it is eliminated and the psalm spoken, to be sung only when a true cantor was developed and in place.

    Many traditional Catholics can identify with this I think, those preferring to receive Communion from an ordained priest rather than a lay person.

    My usual rant on song leading destroying music at Mass. But, just think of sitting through a miserable attempt at singing a psalm. It's not integral, you are correct.

    Cantoring in a Synagogue is often good to excellent. And they pay a person who has taken upon this as his/her profession.
  • Music is at best a support to the Mass, not an integral part that in a sense is the liturgy


    No. It is "fitting adornment" to the Sacred Liturgy. When it is done badly, it is not recognized as fitting adornment. When bad music is done (ducking) this, too, is not fitting adornment -- but that's because it is bad music, not because music isn't fitting.

    The problem we get into in this country is a rich heritage of Jansenism (if that's not an oxymoron). LOW MASS (we hear) is the norm. MISSA DE ANGELIS is the only really Gregorian setting of the Mass. CHOIRS AND ORGANS ARE EXTRAS -- or so we are told.

    Anglicans don't get much right (speaking as a former Anglican) but the necessity of proper attention to liturgy they have grasped.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Pope John Paul II:
    music and song are not merely an ornament or embellishment added to the liturgy. On the contrary, they form one reality with the celebration


    Second Vatican Council:
    The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art. The main reason for this pre-eminence is that, as sacred song united to the words, it forms a necessary or integral part of the solemn liturgy.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    As J. Michael Thompson mentioned in the PTB Live Feed discussion on chant, "text and melody are not the only agents of chant. To be complete it must also be wedded to ritual." (A paraphrase.)
    As usual, I also recall Mahrt characterizing Gregorian Chant as a sacral language unto itself, not the sum of its audible elements.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • Fr. Perrone, if I recall correctly, posits that it was the opinion of some (I don't recall who) that the chant melodies were divinely inspired, if not perhaps at the same level as Holy Writ.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    That's the received wisdom about Mozart too.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That's the received wisdom about Mozart too.

    Oh man, that shoulda been in purple bold.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen MatthewRoth
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    Sorry I am late to the party but
    Another amusing encounter in the House of Commons is reported to have occurred as Churchill was orating about mankind, saying "Man" this and "Man" that. Every time he would mention "Man," Lady Astor would interject: "...And Woman, Mr. Speaker...And Woman!" Finally Churchill is supposed to have exclaimed, "In this context, Mr. Speaker, the understanding is that Man EMBRACES Woman." This did not improve his relations with the Noble Lady.

    It has been alleged that the only reason women are permitted to distribute communion is that the idea was so inconceivable to the drafters of the original regulations that they forgot to use vir instead of homo
  • Wow.

    It's quite evident that if only men can be priests, and only the consecrated hands of a priest should touch the Sacred Species, only men could serve to distribute Holy Communion, regardless of the existence of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.