EF Question: August 14 evening Mass
  • Does an evening EF Mass on August 14 have to be the proper Vigil of the Assumption, or can it be an anticipated/externally solemnized Mass of the feast itself?

    Citations of practice by liturgically punctilious entities would be useful, as well.

    Many thanks!
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    It can be the Mass of the feast. Fr. Pasley does this with his parish, and he could explain it to you more clearly, but I understand that it is because canon law allows for anticipated Masses, and it is a favor to be multiplied generously since no ruling bans it in the EF.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Amazing. Does this mean, theoretically speaking, that a parish could have an anticipated EF Missa Cantata every Saturday evening?

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,481
    "There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning."
    -Jimmy Buffet
  • Julie,

    I'm not sure, but that would seem a logical conclusion: His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, allowed Catholics who couldn't assist at Mass on a Sunday to attend Mass on a Saturday evening.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, allowed Catholics who couldn't assist at Mass on a Sunday to attend Mass on a Saturday evening.


    Ah but this allowed the transfer of the obligation to hear Mass, it does not really change the rubrics / Calendar.

    Now the EF rubrics / calendar assume that Mass USUALLY is celebrated in the morning... the later changes to normally allow Mass at other times have not been fully anticipated by the rubrics.

    I would suggest that the spirit of the rubrics (EF) would mean the Vigil of the Assumption Mass is said and not the Mass of the Feast.
    N.B. This Mass would of course fulfil the obligation to hear Mass on the Feast. Now if you regularly had Vespers and it was celebrated before this evening Mass, I would think it would be better to say the Mass of the Feast and not the Vigil Mass.

    Those that would wish to say the Mass of St. M. Kolbe, well, I think no, but I could not get upset if some one did.
  • Tomjaw,

    Thank you for the elaboration of the topic.

    God bless,

    Chris
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Indeed, I am not really a fan of anticipated Masses... But, the CIC seems to allow it for all Masses of the Latin Rite.

    No, the spirit of the EF rubrics would be to have only morning Mass for the vigil of the feast because the feast begins with 1st Vespers. Further, one can say the Mass of S. Maximilian in some way (either as of the day or as a commemoration) because the PCED allowed it in a 1994 provision (same letter as the one on acolytes serving as subdeacon). In fact, at Low Mass, there are three collects one can pray.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @ MatthewRoth

    The CIC allows... not compels? I have not got the text to hand. Anyway a couple of questions.

    Q. What Mass is said on the evening of the Feast of St. Peter and Paul when it falls on a saturday?

    Q. What Mass would be said on the evening of the 15th August?

    I am sure that a thread on this forum suggested that in the OF the Mass of SS. Peter and Paul would be said and not the Mass of the Sunday. Even though Vespers would have been said. Similarly most people would expect an evening Mass on the 15th to be the Mass of the Feast, even if 2nd Vespers may have be said publicly only a short while before. It is because of cases like these I suggest that evening Masses on the 14th would be of the Vigil (unless Vespers has been sung). But ad lib could be of the Feast if it is preferred.

    No, the spirit of the EF rubrics would be to have only morning Mass ...


    I would suggest that the Rubrics as written would expect a Conventual Mass of the Vigil after Terse / None. Other low Masses could be said in the morning in communities with more than one priest. What the rubrics expect and what their 'spirit' is are two different things. So while the Missale / Rubrics expect that Masses said on the 14th would be of the Vigil, but because they were not written with evening Masses in mind, particularly Masses said after 1st Vespers. So the spirit of the rubrics in my opinion expect that Mass would be of the Vigil.

    While I am used to singing Vespers and Compline, I prefer not to use the timings of them in an argument particularly as many catholics will have no idea what I am talking about, especially as there are exceptions as in the two cases above. Anyway I did suggest that in places that celebrate Vespers it would be sensible that an evening Mass after the celebration of Vespers would be of the Feast.

    Just because 'we' no longer fast, and so have little idea what a Vigil is, does not mean they no longer exist. (It also does not matter that most catholics think a vigil is an anticipated Mass of Sunday.) The question of the Mass of S. Maximilian in the EF has a few problems...

    What Mass / Office (EF) would we use, Common of Martyrs?

    What Rank is his feast (in the EF), and can it replace the Vigil or be commemorated?

    Knowing S. Maximilian and his love for the BVM, would he be pleased that his feast would permanently replace the ancient Vigil Mass of the Assumption?
  • ntnch1776
    Posts: 13
    St. Maximilian was declared a martyr by Pope St. John Paul II, so the Common of Martyrs would be used. The Vigil of the Assumption is a class II vigil and includes the commemoration of St. Eusebius (confessor). If the Vigil was to fall on a Sunday or a class I feast, it would be omitted and not commemorated. St. Maximilian was canonized in 1982, so he has no place in the universal calendar of 1962. However, his feast would be of class I (and replace entirely the Vigil) if he was the duly constituted principal Patron of the nation/ecclesiastical province/civil region/civil province/diocese/ecclesiastical territory/place/town/city, the Titular of the church/public oratory/semi-public oratory if it is consecrated or blessed, the Titular of the Order/Congregation, the founder of the Order/Congregation, or the duly constituted principal Patron of the Order/Congregation/religious province. His class I feast could also be inscribed in the particular calendar by indult of the Holy See. His feast could not be commemorated at Mass/Office of the Vigil because the Vigil already has a commemoration in the universal calendar.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Yes, but diocesan law sometimes compels the anticipated Mass being used. So when Immaculate Conception falls on a holy day, evening OF Masses are of the Sunday of Advent because that is law for the diocese (yes, one could apply it, I think, to the EF, but don’t tell the bishops!). I use that and not Ss. Peter & Paul because that is not a HDO in America. Further, a feast is the evening prior (from noon onward) to midnight of the following day, so even if diocesan law binds to the Sunday Mass, it would still fulfill one’s obligation for the HDO (and a pastor ought to use this to get diocesan law changed when solemnities fall on Saturday).

    The question of an evening Mass on the feast itself is silly. The 16th can’t be anticipated. It isn’t another solemnity that can be anticipated.


    Regarding Kolbe, I assume the Common of Martyrs; the orations come from the new misssal, and the rest from the appropriate common. The rank is a good question; it seems we ought to treat new feasts like 3rd class feasts, unless they be a patron of a church, diocese, institute, etc. in which cases (and perhaps others) they would be raised to solemnities. John XXIII is impeded on October 11 because of the Maternity of Mary being II class. So his feast and the Ugandan martyrs in the EF are the same day.

    Giving people an option to celebrate it in some way is a good thing. And in a scenario like this, even at Sung Masses according to the 1962 missal, I think the priest would be OK with two collects.

    You are allowed three collects at Low Mass, so yes it is allowed in the 1962 missal.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Here in London we have regular evening EF Masses in the churches in the centre of London,
    6.30pm Every Monday
    6.30pm First Fridays
    The Juventutem Mass 3rd Fridays 7.30pm
    Masses on Holidays and major Feasts
    All of these Churches do not celebrate Vespers!

    At all of these Masses we say the Mass of the day, even if it there is a major solemnity the following day. We will no doubt have evening Mass on the 15th and we will have the Mass of the Feast not of St. Joachim... Any Masses celebrated in these churches on the evening of the 14th will be of the Vigil.

    While I think it is fair to celebrate either the Vigil or the Feast on the evening of the 14th, what I do not like is the idea that we could celebrate the Feast day Mass at 6.30pm on the 14th and then also celebrate the same Mass at 6.30pm on the 15th, even though this is a common occurrence in the OF, I don't think it is something we should do in the EF.

    St. Maximilian Kolbe
    While there are churches and a personal parish that are dedicated to this Saint and so therefore this would be according to the EF a First Class feast (double of the First Class with common octave), which Mass would we use the Common of a Martyr not a Bishop has two Masses, In Virtute Or Laetabitur, the collects would have to be the common collects and not the OF proper collects unless permission is sort from the relevant authority, they should also be able to say which set of propers to use.

    For other places we really do need to know the rank of his feast, before we can do anything. Changing the calendar can cause all sorts of problems!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Tomjaw, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei in 1994 settled this for us. The orations come from the Pauline missal. http://saintbedestudio.blogspot.com/2007/03/ecclesia-dei-commission-decisions1.html?m=1


    I can’t quite grasp why you draw in the scenario of someone anticipating S. Joachim on the evening of the 15th. AFAIK it is not allowed in the Latin church to anticipate any Mass, only those which are of obligation. One could still say an evening Mass on the 15th... A feast runs from the evening (12 noon!) before to midnight which begins the following day. Any Mass in that timeframe fulfills the obligation. Any Mass after 4 pm may anticipate the feast (unless it have an evening vigil like the Pentecost vigil and of course the Easter vigil...). 1st Vespers in these USA may be said (historically, anyways) after 4 pm, which makes anticipation neat. And time Masses and the praying of Vespers around each other, but keeping in mind canonically Vespers does not close the feast.

    I don’t have a problem with Mass of the day before a feast or the anticipated Mass when it is a holy day of obligation. Canon law allows for that choice, and either could be to the advantage of the faithful.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Tomjaw, the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei in 1994 settled this for us. The orations come from the Pauline missal. http://saintbedestudio.blogspot.com/2007/03/ecclesia-dei-commission-decisions1.html

    I would point out that this does not settle the issue, but as a private reply, it binds only he who received it.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The PCED also did not tell us the two important pieces of information RANK and which Common Mass. As Jahaza has said these are private replies, These replies are problematic as the Latin Mass Society (LMS) has found, where the reply to the England and Wales bishops was contradicted in the following answer to a carefully worded question by the LMS.

    Re 14th...
    Sorry I did not understand that your argument had limits attached... "So on a Feast day as appointed by relevant authority to be a day (like a Sunday) when the Mass Proper could be anticipated to the afternoon or evening of the previous day (effectually after Vespers), that this practice of the OF could also be applied to the EF."

    Fair enough that would be o.k. BUT this practice could have problems in the E.F.

    1. What happens when we have two feasts of this type on consecutive days... Which Mass would be said in the afternoon / evening of the first feast, would this rely on the rank? I think the Mass in the evening of the first feast would cover the obligation for both feasts.

    2. What happens when a local First class feast may have a higher rank than the anticipated OF feast of the following day?

    3. What about conflicts between local OF calendars and the Universal EF...

    Here in England our bishops have asked the EF communities to celebrate the major feasts on the same day as the OF. So Epiphany, Ascension, and Corpus Christi are all moved to the following Sunday, they expect the E.F. communities to have External Solemnities on these Sundays, this does not cause too many problems unless another First Class feast falls on the Sunday within the octave of those feasts. But another thing they do does cause a bigger problem, Days of obligation such as St Peter and Paul, Assumption, And All Saints when they fall on Saturday or a Monday are moved to the Sunday... So when All Saints falls on a Monday, it 'must' be moved to the last Sunday of October, hmm Christ the King, I think not. Best to ignore them!

    So my suggestion (EF only) is to always have the Mass of the day (even in the evening), and only to anticipate if First Vespers has been publicly sung before the Mass. Not including obvious examples such as Maunday Thursday, Easter Vigil etc.

    The obligation to hear Mass on certain days tells us nothing about what Proper must be used to fulfil the obligation.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    One wouldn’t be wrong, however, in following that advice...

    1). This is related to bishops suppressing Saturday HDO, even though that solution is more pastorally confusing... I am inclined to say that one should not anticipate the second Mass. Regardless, two Masses=two obligations. If Ss. Peter and Paul, an HDO in England and Wales, is on Saturday (and for argument’s sake remained an HDO), one could go to Mass of the feast Friday evening or Saturday morning and then another Mass of the feast in the evening or an anticipated Sunday Mass, or Mass on Sunday to fulfill his obligation. So it is a universal problem for the Latin church.

    2) I would stick to the local calendar. One would be expected to do the same in the OF, methinks.

    3) In those cases, yes, I am inclined to agree.


    To your last point, no, the church is mighty flexible. “Any Mass [Eucharistic liturgy] in any Catholic rite” suffices for an obligation; the HDOs correspond to the same feast in the Byzantine calendar, but their Sundays differ, just as they differ between the EF and OF calendars.