BFW vs. Chabanel Psalms
  • Hi.

    i just received not too long ago my copy of By Flowing Waters and I'm wondering if anyone can maybe compare/contrast how to use the book most effectively as compared to the music offered by the Chabanel Psalm project.

    Or, perhaps I'm missing the point entirely and the two are used in completley different ways.

    Any enlightment in the effective use of both resources would be greatly appreciated. I'm mostly interested in Gradual/Responsorial Psalm issues, but am also interested in other issues that pertain to English Propers. Thanks.
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    - The Chabanel project sets the responsorial psalms from the lectionary. BFW contains music for the entrance, chants between the readings, offertory and communion. Responsorial psalms for use in between the readings would be part of this.

    - Unlike Chabanel, the BFW responsorial psalms are seasonal rather than proper to a particular Sunday/ feast day. They do not correspond to the lectionary.

    - Chabanel psalms are new compositions, for the most part modal but not always in free rhythm. The BFW responsorial psalms correspond to the Graduale Simplex and are set to formulaic patterns from the brief responses of the Divine Office. This, and the fact that they are seasonal, might make the BFW psalms a little easier for congregations to learn.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Hi, darth_linux,

    Just a note (no pun intended):

    The Chabanel Psalms also offer all kinds of different options each Sunday, by different composers. There are simple settings, modal settings, polyphonic settings, organ settings, etc. Check out Year B It is fun to compare different settings of the same text to the same Psalm tone, and see the different ways Chabanel composers set English to chant. Our newest composer is Richard Rice.

    (also, they are totally free!)
  • Robert and Jeff - thank you for your explanations. It's all making more sense!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I'd love to see more of these settings from Richard Rice, especially where the current Lectionary antiphon is different than in Marier's psalmody. His antiphons will be so easy for my congregation who is already familiar with their chant style. I have also been using Columba Kelly's psalms during Advent (from - gasp- GIA), adding a gathering tone to keep with the established convention.
  • Robert replied
    Unlike Chabanel, the BFW responsorial psalms are seasonal rather than proper to a particular Sunday/ feast day. They do not correspond to the lectionary.

    Chabanel psalms are new compositions, for the most part modal but not always in free rhythm. The BFW responsorial psalms correspond to the Graduale Simplex and are set to formulaic patterns from the brief responses of the Divine Office. This, and the fact that they are seasonal, might make the BFW psalms a little easier for congregations to learn.

    Dave, Robert is correct when he says, “The BFW responsorial psalms correspond to the Graduale Simplex and are set to formulaic patterns from the brief responses of the Divine Office. This . . . might make the BFW psalms a little easier for congregations to learn.”

    But he makes the same generalizing overstatement about the seasonal nature of the Simple Gradual that the U.S. Bishops make in their insertions into the GIRM at §§48, 61, and 87.

    There are 98 responsorial psalms in the Simple Gradual, 53 of which are responsorial psalms in the rather confined way we have experienced them since the reform of the Lectionary, and 44 of which are alleluia psalms, a genre that escapes the attention of any church musicians.

    I say “confined way” because we are too used to singing “antiphon/verses/antiphon,” etc., when, as Robert notes, the brief response style of the Liturgy of the Hours is verse/antiphon/verse, etc.

    Alleluia psalms are responsorial psalms in which the response IS “Alleluia.” They are “proper” to the Easter season, but they may sung in any season except Lent. Throughout the Lectionary one sees the notation “R/. ‘blah, blah, blah’ OR R/. ‘Alleluia.’ ” (This repertoire includes more than just the Hallel psalms of the Psalter.)

    Some of the responsorial/alleluia psalms of the Simple Gradual ARE seasonal: Advent Season I and Advent Season II, Easter Season I and Easter Season II, and Ordinary Time I through IX, except VI and VII. Ash Wednesday’s responsorials can be used all during Lent (and the responsorials of First, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Lent are somewhat seasonal).

    However, some of the responsorial/alleluia psalms of the Simple Gradual ARE proper: Christmas, Holy Family, Epiphany, Baptism of the Lord, Passion Sunday, Chrism Mass, Holy Thursday: Evening Mass of the Lord’s Supper, Good Friday, The Easter Vigil, Easter Sunday, The Ascension of the Lord, Pentecost Sunday, Trinity Sunday, Body and Blood of Christ, Sacred Heart, Christ the King, Presentation of the Lord, Birth of John the Baptist, Peter and Paul, Transfiguration of the Lord, Assumption of Mary, Birth of Mary, Triumph of the Cross, Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, All Saints, and Immaculate Conception of Mary.

    And some of the responsorial/alleluia psalms of the Simple Gradual are communal, from the Commons of the Dedication of a Church, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, of Apostles, of Martyrs, of Holy Men, of Doctors of the Church, and of Holy Women.

    The ritual Mass for Marriage and the Mass in Any Need have their own responsorials.
    The Mass for the Dead has a rich treasury of responsorials.

    Mary Mother of God, Joseph, the Annunciation of the Lord, and the Birth of Mary are borrowed.
    The Second Sunday of Lent borrows from the Transfiguration of the Lord.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I am so happy, because today we added a new guest composer: Bruce Ford !

    Incantu, if you like Richard Rice's settings, I think you will also really like Bruce's.
  • As Paul Ford so eloquently has said, there is more beauty in words and music that was conceived by the Church than has been delivered to us by OCP/GIA and so forth.

    When the rubrics of a church are "Is it in the paper Missal?" we are living in the land of Fahrenheit 451...they didn't burn the books, they just failed to print them.
  • And I am happy, by the way, when Jeff Ostrowski is HAPPY!
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Just to add the above, all the guest composers on the Chabanel Psalms site use the NAB translation, and most include an optional organ accompaniment.

    I believe the BFW uses the Divine Office translation (Grail) and does not include organ accompaniments. (someone please correct me if I am wrong)
  • By Flowing Waters does not use the Grail but uses the New Revised Standard Version of the psalms and canticles.

    Why? Because, at the time BFW was conceived in the early 1990s, the NRSV had the Roman recognitio (rescinded in 1994 [at the request of the USCCB, who had asked Rome to recognize only the RNAB, whose copyright fees support the work of the USCCB] but restored in 2007).

    Note: The imprimatur for the NRSV has never been withdrawn (unlike the imprimatur for the ICEL psalms and canticles).

    I began the BFW project with the RNAB psalms and canticles but discovered how short the lines were (among other issues), so I was ordered to use the the NRSV texts by OCP (with whom I then had a letter of intent to publish). This was happy for several instance: the lines of poetry were generally long enough to use the intonations and the cadences of the psalm tones, the translation was ecumenical, and the use fees were moderate.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Thank you, Dr. Ford! Very informative.

    Hopefully I won't take this conversation off-track, but I would like to ask: (1) what is an "ecumenical" translation of the Psalms? (2) Is there an online source for the 2007 restoration?

    In Christ,

    JMO
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Sometimes I think the word ecumenical just means Catholic theology that doesn't offend non-catholics.
  • Jeff asked:
    Hopefully I won't take this conversation off-track, but I would like to ask: (1) what is an "ecumenical" translation of the Psalms? (2) Is there an online source for the 2007 restoration?


    Pace Francis’s remark, the Bible is common to all the churches and ecclesial communities. Therefore, it assists the work of the Holy Spirit in the work of reuniting all Christians when biblical scholars from all of these bodies collaborate to produce a translation of the Bible that all may call their own.

    The NRSV is such a collaborative effort (see here).

    I read about the 2007 restoration of the NRSV here.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Thanks!

    Oh, no wonder I haven't heard of that restoration: it appears only to apply to Canada. (?)

    Sorry, are you quoting a guy named "Pace Francis" ? Or am I misreading?

    I have serious disagreements with that statement, because the Bible is NOT common to all churches and communities. For instance, Martin Luther said it is OK to "toss out as uninspired any book of the Bible that one has an aversion to." I know Luther himself tossed out and changed several parts of the Bible. But this is another subject entirely. In the meantime, I applaud the effort for Christian unity, and we need to pray that it happens SOON.

    But, Dr. Ford, I thank you for answering my question! The more I learn about this subject, the less I feel I know.
  • I find the feminist gender politics of the NRSV to be extremely off-putting.
  • Jeff said:
    Oh, no wonder I haven't heard of that restoration: it appears only to apply to Canada. (?)

    Sorry, are you quoting a guy named "Pace Francis" ? Or am I misreading?

    I have serious disagreements with that statement, because the Bible is NOT common to all churches and communities. For instance, Martin Luther said it is OK to "toss out as uninspired any book of the Bible that one has an aversion to." I know Luther himself tossed out and changed several parts of the Bible. But this is another subject entirely. In the meantime, I applaud the effort for Christian unity, and we need to pray that it happens SOON.


    (I was trying to use pace in meaning two at pace. I did use italics but they are hard to read.)

    I am well aware of Luther’s aversions but all Lutheran editions of the Bible contain the books he didn’t approve of.

    Yes, let us pray for Christian unity.
  • Daniel, I am generally content with the horizontally inclusive language of the NRSV. The NRSV rule was to "mak[e] it clear where the original texts intend to include all humans, male and female, and where they intend to refer only to the male or female gender."
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    mak[e] it clear where the original texts intend to include all humans, male and female, and where they intend to refer only to the male or female gender."

    I'm sorry but what's this mean? This is very confusing. Does it have to do with God's creation by any chance? God created man and woman.
    Also, in English, 'Human' includes "huwoman," no? (not good with origin of English words). I don't understand why people are so picky about that and complain. (I'm a woman, and I never felt God loves my husband than me, because the translation says 'he,' and because Christ was a man not a woman.)
    I rather complain why God picked Israel as a chosen country, not Korea (my naitive country), if I'm looking for something to complain.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I know it's a bit off the topic, but related and important, because it's about the text. This inclusive language is becoming too much, and seems to cause more problems, because people are getting more fussy about little things and miss the whole picture. The hymn "Faith of our Fathers' now have 2nd verse, 'Faith of our Mothers"? And in our parish a sister, who always sits behind me, changes prayer "His Church' to "God's Church" and says it very loudly during mass, and it's really distracting (and annoying ).
    M y point is that people who complains will always find something to complain about. Changing some words in translation of the Bible to make some people happy isn't really going to help them, I don't think. This is a superficial cover, just being 'politically 'correct,' and distracting from the main focus on the problems in our church. It's like I'm giving a bandaid to my kid who needs a surgery. They have a bigger problem. People need to be better educated to understand God's love and catholic faith by our priests, starting from the sacred liturgy.
  • Try reaching back and smacking Sister upside the head when she does this...it'll get back for Sr. Carmella shaking me when I was in first grade. DO IT HARD. And then smile and tell her to offer it up to all the kids nuns smacked around...

    Oh. I feel...BETTER!