Implementing the Graduale Simplex
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Hello, everyone, I am going to try to implement the Graduale Simplex somewhat during the next school year. These will not be for regular weekend Masses, but only for weekday Masses with the students, because that's what I'm in charge of. I am going to use the GS along side SEP, and here's the idea: during Advent and Lent, the appropriate antiphon with at least one verse will be sung from the GS, followed by the SEP. In many cases, the SEP is a translation of what is in the GS, although I realize that may not have been done intentionally. The goal is to get people, especially the students, accustomed to hearing Latin propers in addition to a Latin ordinary. We've already established the Latin ordinary during Advent and Lent, a discussion for another day as I do not understand the association between Latin and penance/penitential seasons/depressing times, etc., and I feel the next step is Latin propers with translation immediately following. By limiting the amount of verses sung in Latin, the amount of time the proper takes to sing can be better controlled. I am fully aware that the GIRM says, "...antiphon with psalm..." which for all intents and purposes means to sing the prescribed antiphon with ALL psalm verses assigned, which is why the approach as always been to sing as much of the English verses as possible. Do you think this is even worth trying to do? As Latin propers go, the GS is probably the most advanced the student choir is going to get. Every once in a while, we will do one from the GR if it is a simple one, such as Mitte Manum Tuam.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    As Latin propers go, the GS is probably the most advanced the student choir is going to get. Every once in a while, we will do one from the GR if it is a simple one.

    Wonderful! This is exactly what the Graduale Simplex is intended for: small choirs that are not able to sing the full Graduale Romanum propers can still sing Latin texts proper to the season using authentic Gregorian chants, without excluding the simpler antiphons from the GR that are within their reach.

    From the verses printed in the GS, you don't have to sing all of them (the verses in the GS are already a selection from the psalm). If necessary, you can choose any smaller number of verses, as long as they keep expressing a single line of thought.

    If you want the antiphon and/or the verses also sung in English, alongside the Latin, you might want to look at the Choral Graduale Simplex by Aristotle Esguerra, instead of using the Simple English Propers. These are translations of the GS texts and they match the GS melodies very closely. In this way, the proper chants, even though sung in Latin and English at the same time, much more form a musical unity.

    Another possibility is to use By Flowing Waters by Paul Ford.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Thank you for pointing me to Aristotle's resource. I will be using that instead of the SEP when I'm using the GS. I never knew that the melodies were as close to the GS as they are, which is exactly what I'm looking for. It will make the connection between the two: one is a translation of the other much more clear to the people that hear it.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    ClergetKubisz: I do not understand the association between Latin and penance/penitential seasons/depressing times, etc.

    People are probably used to the idea that the Ordinary is changed seasonally.
    Advent Season is four Sundays. Lent Season is six Sundays.
    The music chooser can select a chant Ordinary for those seasons
    because the seasons are short and the People will push back less.
    Trying to introduce a chant Ordinary during Ordinary Time is more dangerous.

    Oh yeah, and Christmas is three Sundays, so in a future year
    you continue your Advent Season selection for a few more weeks,
    and maybe nobody notices, and then chant is in a non-penance season.
    Woohoo!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    This is getting off topic, but how would you guys respond to the complaint that a 9-fold Kyrie is too long? Specifically, we were doing Mass VIII at the time.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    One answer is: "Thank you for letting me know. We in the music ministry should do our best to make the Kyrie more beautiful. If we do that, people won't be bothered about the little time it takes."

    It takes 98 seconds to sing that Kyrie.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBoEf3cqMRo

    That is about one minute longer than a spoken Kyrie.

    So the person complaining is talking about a difference of one minute, in a Mass which perhaps takes 60 minutes.

    Singing the Kyrie and hearing the sung Kyrie is a genuine act of worship; it's part of the rite of Mass. It is not something unnecessary and non-prayerful, like waiting around for the second collection to finish. I don't hear people complaining about that.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Why would you do a 9 fold Kyrie? I assume you're doing the OF if you're using the Simplex.

    Just do the Gregorian Kyries 6 fold. Most of them turn out fine - especially Mass VIII.

    Also the Kyriale in the Graduale Simplex is full of wonderful "quick" Gregorian Ordinary options.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Yes, we are doing the OF, and we're going to start using the Simplex next school year. We started doing the 6-fold after we had the complaint and Fr. spoke with me about it (I had to confront him: he didn't approach me). This particular priest started to cut us off and not allow us to do the Kyrie sung: he would intentionally choose a form of the penitential rite that he could just speak right through and preclude us from singing the Kyrie. I eventually had enough of getting stepped on and confronted him about it. He mentioned that people had told him that the 9-fold is too long. I spoke with several parishioners who attend that particular Mass and they corroborated what Fr. had said. We changed to the 6-fold, as it is a valid option. My concern here is that Fr. was deliberately cutting us off from singing the Kyrie because it was "too long." The other priest that serves at that church does not cut us off from singing the Kyrie, so I know it is a personal choice made by the particular priest in question.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Some of the Kyries from the Graduale Simplex would add almost no time over having it spoken.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That's quite true. I've been perusing that resource for some time now and finding the hidden gems within. In fact, I've strongly considered using one of the Masses from the Kyriale Simplex
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    The Kyriale in the Simplex is a wonderful resource - especially for sung daily Masses.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,314
    Regardless of the six vs ninefold Kyrie and the respective length and legality in the OF, it is disheartening that a priest would arbitrarily cut off the musicians from singing the prepared Ordinary.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    As you don't sing a Gloria on most weekdays, I see no problem with a 9-fold Kyrie. Start with Kyrie XVI (given in Missa Simplex I) as it is the shortest anyway and will get people used to a 9-fold Kyrie.

    If you can manage it, the Kyrie from Mass XI (Orbis Factor) isn't much longer, and there is a short version (which as far as I can tell no-one actually uses) which is worth learning.

    Also, don't be afraid to mix it up a little. Agnus Dei Ad Lib II is a good option and well worth teaching the kids. I'm sure that there are some simple 2 or 3-voice Agnus Dei movements out there which you can use as a polyphonic 2nd invocation before returning to the regular chant Agnus Dei. We do it ay my college all the time.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Also, prepare a few "Commons chants"

    Common of Holy Women:
    Introit from GS, Communion from SEP (you'll find some matching texts)

    Common of Holy Men:
    Introit from St Joseph, SEP

    Common Blessed Virgin Mary:
    Introit: Salve Sancta Parents (GR)
    Offertory: Ave Maria (GS or Chant Hymn)
    Communion: Beata Viscera (GR)
    (in fact, this is what I taught a group of complete chant novices for a Marian Pilgrimmage last year)

    Communion Ad Libitum:
    Gustate et Videte (GR)
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @hartleymartin, I would love to teach the kids some polyphony, but pedagogically it is impractical: the students are no older than 10 or 11 (corresponds to 4th and 5th grade in the US), with the vast majority of them beneath that age. My pedagogical training taught me that students younger than 5th or 6th grade cannot successfully sing independent parts. In fact, the Kodaly method (which I teach) doesn't start discussing part singing until 5th grade. I know that there are children younger than the "correct pedagogical age" that can sing in parts, but I have no clue how they are trained to do it, as I haven't had much success with doing so at the primary grade levels. So far, I'm sticking to unison chant (which they've had great success with), and introducing some organum by trying to have the older students sing the organum part and let the rest of the students sing the original chant melody.

    You're also correct about the ad libitum chants: they're not commonly done, but are quite effective. I'm thinking about doing Missa Simplex II, only because everybody at the church already knows Missa Simplex I, but they know it as the "Chanted Mass" because it's also the ICEL Mass.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    @Chonak "So the person complaining is talking about a difference of one minute, in a Mass which perhaps takes 60 minutes."

    That's probably the guy that passed me dangerously and cut me off only to have me catch up to him at the next stop light as I chug along at the speed limit...

    More seriously yes in Quebec we have problems with people getting edgy when they think Mass is "too long" (and with people passing so that they can be first at the next red light). I can tell you in most parishes, 60 minutes would definitely cause grumbling. Most like to be read, fed and sped along within 50 minutes on a Sunday, maybe 55 if it's a special occasion. Hit 60, and you'll hear about it and over 60...

    For that reason our choir never does both a Gloria and a Credo. We do the Gloria during the seasons it is called for, and the Credo during Advent and Lent. And forget the Gradual, we always end up doing the responsorial psalm sung in French on a Gregorian tone (which IMHO sounds really, really kludgy, and someone always ends up doing the melody change on the wrong syllable). Drives me nuts! We also only do 6-fold Kyries.

    Ora
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    If you can lay your hands on it, try Bevenot's "Mass in Mi" The Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei alternate between two voices. Basically, the first group sings one Kyrie, the second group sings the second and both groups repeat their parts together to form a 2-voice harmony. Something similar happens in the Sanctus and Agnus Dei. If it doesn't work, nothing lost except a bit of time, and it's proven not to work for that age group.

    I'm pleased to hear that you regularly chant the credo. It only happens in some cathedral churches and a few die-hard traditionalist parishes here in Australia.

    A few years ago I was involved with the Guild of St Stephen, which operated a "Guild Conference" although in reality it was a Catholic Youth Camp for Altar Servers where the main activities were learning how to serve at mass. Each year the conference focuses on a different area. One year we did an overview of the Catechism. We've been told by many altar servers that they've learned more about what the Catholic Church believes and being a Catholic than they've learned in all the years they've been at Catholic Schools and going to Sunday Mass (says something about the state of religious education ey?)

    One year, we taught them a collection of chants which included:

    Kyrie XVI
    Sanctus XVIII
    Agnus Dei XVIII
    Pater Noster
    Salve Regina (Tonus Simplex)
    Credo I
    Tantum Ergo
    Adoremus in Aeternum

    We also taught them how to chant the offices of Lauds and Compline aswell as giving them time in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. We also encouraged them to go to confession, how to pray the Angelus and the Rosary. Quite a lot in 4 days!

    What really surprised me was how I managed to teach the first six items on that list of chant in two sessions of 40 minutes each. Two sessions were given to the older 13-16 year old members, and two sessions were given to the younger 10-12 age group, with a few of the older members seated with them to help them learn the chants.

    I wish you all the best in teaching them how to chant propers. Just remember to teach them a few hymns as well. Chances are that they'll go to parish churches where the hymn sandwich is all they ever get in terms of church music, so they might as well learn some decent hymns and influence those parishes.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,471
    I'm thinking about doing Missa Simplex II

    The first kyrie given is Kyrie XVIII Deus genitor alme. I once tried using the tropes to turn it back into an obvious litany form, nobody complained.