"Performance"
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    It seems whenever there is excellent musical accomplishment in the church, I hear the old canard about "We should not have performance at Mass!" In other words, don't do something too excellent, we want mediocrity! How would any of you answer this persistent argument?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    "Then why do they applaud at the end, no matter how bad the music was?"
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    You know, there were musical settings of liturgical texts which I nevertheless thought inappopriate in a liturgical context, at one time.
    I was disabused of that notion when finally I heard a world-class soprano and a fine choir sing Mozart at an otherwise superbly arranged and acomplished.

    We don't need to lower the quality of the music, we need to raise everthing else to the same level of excellence.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World.)
  • The people who chortle that canard wish us to realise that God only wants, and is only fittingly praised by, music that isn't very good, that isn't very well executed, and is performed only by those who can't play or sing very well. Fine music finely performed is only for human ears in the concert hall. This is what these folk wish us to understand. It's only for God - who, furthermore, really doesn't care! (It's amazing, isn't it?, how they know these things.)

    Let us understand one thing - God indeed is pleased with the best efforts of the less-talented, but also with the best efforts of the more talented. In fact, I should venture to suppose that the best prepared performance of an amateur is superior to the not-best prepared performance of a more gifted person (and vice-versa). No matter our talents, God expects (and is entitled to) our best. He didn't bestow them for us to praise him sloppily. (Nor did he bestow them in greater or lesser degrees for preposterously self-appointed and small-minded little ingrate judges to deride them as 'elitist'.)
  • That worn canard, indeed. Provided the music is sacred and excellently rendered, such a complaint can often be traced back to plain old envy.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 442
    I would not answer it. Instead I would examine the behaviour which has surrounded the excellent music, and check for ways that it does not model Christ's love. Now it may be that here are no issues, and the comment is simply based on jealously. But I've found that's not always the case.
    Thanked by 1ParleyDee
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    And the composer intended his work not be performed?
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    I say, "OK, you're right, it was a performance...but you weren't the intended audience of it!"
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Since the OP gives little context for the offending remark, it's difficult to appraise the full situation. There's no accounting for taste, unfortunately. Some people think "Worthy is the Lamb" from the Messiah a perfect anthem for Easter Sunday; I think it's operatic trash that belongs on the vaudeville stage. It's certainly an attention-grabbing work, but sometimes perception is louder than anything else.

    Some people call "performance" anything that is slightly above or beyond their level of comprehension. Some do have a real aversion to serious music. My own boss admits his affection for the sillier music of his youth---Ray Repp, Sebastian Temple, etc. He freely admits that it's juvenile, but he can't get over his liking for it. He never asks me to program these things for liturgy, but he's representative of his generation.

    Soldier on. Keep working hard. ignore the naggers and doubters. Do your work for the glory of Jesus Christ and to sanctify the faithful.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    "Worthy is the Lamb" from the Messiah a perfect anthem for Easter Sunday; I think it's operatic trash


    I would happily produce this sort of trash on request if I could.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    He who steals my repertoire steals trash.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    He who steals my repertoire deserves exactly what he gets.
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    rogue63... i totally concur... worthy is the lamb is not for the liturgy. nor is most of mozart. save it for the stage.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    ...most of mozart.
    What, are you beginning to soften now?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Use "execute" instead.

    "We executed sacred music at Mass."

    This could mean one of two things, though...
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @Stimson, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
  • rschi123
    Posts: 13
    I think I would call it performance when the personality of the singer or player is conveyed more powerfully than the text or the music, which can happen with amateur Mozart, professional folk or anything in between.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    soften? no, not really. i have used the ave verum over the years even though it is a bit on the sentimental side. recently accompanied the exultate, but IMO I really think that is too over the top for liturgy.

    in general, i find his music boring... personal taste i suppose.
  • Performance - what is a 'performance'? Certainly, it is nothing to be afraid of, nothing to deny, nothing to apologise for, or to be cringed at as one caught off guard by small minded ingrate accusers! Far from it! Stand your ground!

    It is a presentation to one or more others of a well-prepared example of one's literary, acting, musical, artistic, etc., talent. That is all. It may be presented for the glory of God in the liturgies of his Holy Place, or for human entertainment-enlightenment in the parish hall or opera house. It may be rewarded monetarily, but this is not necessarily the sole motivation of the performance. It is certainly not the sole motivation in liturgical performance. When remuneration is involved it is to support the 'performer' in perfecting the unique 'talent' with which he or she has been endowed by our Creator and in his or her endeavour to make the perfection of this talent and the beauty of holy worship his or her life's work.

    There is no inherent mendacity in this arrangement. It is appropriate for the Church to avail itself of a variety of talents (including musical ones) in the building of a house for God, and in the beauty of his worship that takes place in this Lord's house. This house of God represents the best affordable talent and performance from architects, artists, vestment makers, composers, sculptors, painters, mosaicists, furniture makers, priests, deacons, organ builders, choirs, acolytes, people, and... musicians... and makers of incense, and bricklayers. All are performers of their best talents for the Lord. The parable of the talents makes glaringly clear God's wrath upon the servant who buried (did not perfect) his talents and did not present to him an appropriate growth and return on his gift (did not 'perform'). This is as true of the musician as it is of the priest who does not beautifully offer his sacrifice and preach well. So then, there is nothing wrong with this word 'performance'. Let us accept it and glory in offering it to the All Holy. If some ingrate 'accuses' you of performing, thank him or her and let him and her know that it was your meagre offering to God of what he had given you. 'All things come of thee, O Lord; and only of thine own have we given thee.' Go forth and perform, in gratitude, love, and humility, before your God!

    (And, I might add: we should, all of us, appreciate that a gift from above to one is a gift from above to all.)
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Hey Francis! Are you speaking of the Mozart? If so, it all depends upon how 1. it's interpreted, the Montani/I'm an idiot way, or humbly and nobly simple; 2. often it's not sung, so that when it is, it's like a beloved cousin you haven't heard from in a while.

    I tend to program my own, Kevin Allen's, the Faure, the Byrd or Elgar more frequently.

    Jackson's eloquent post burped up during typing this, and he's spot on. When our Lord spoke in parables, how is that not a type of performance? What is essentially a re-enactment, if not a performance?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    MJO
    That was excellently put and I am going to think about your post in the days to come.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    Sure, some - even most - of those who object to beautiful music at mass do so for the reasons given. But I sense people are being a tad too defensive about this. I appreciate excellent execution at the liturgy and love beautiful concert music as much as anyone, but take exception to a piece at the liturgy which calls attention to itself at the expense of the liturgy. This is what I mean by "performance."

    A sure sign is when people applaud at my church - they don't applaud everything and they certainly don't at a beautifully executed prayer from the priest. A big "performance" piece like a chorus from Messiah tends to take away from the liturgical action going on and focus on the music itself, which music is not liturgical. It is more an attitude that - at least while we are singing our big piece - the liturgy is secondary to music, which is all backwards.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • When the music "upstages" the liturgy, a performance has taken place, even inadvertently.

    Never, never, never should parishioners recognize a concert with a Eucharistic side show. That said, the solution isn't to prune the music but to bring a proper reverence to the liturgical celebration.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Geez, Chris, I guess things would've gone much better if you'd've been the DM at Ipanema/Rio.
  • Chris G-Z offers (performs?) a pertinent viewpoint. Too, he is wise to note that it's not normally that the music is an ipso facto 'performance' in the worst sense of the word, but that the liturgy itself is not a 'performance' in the best sense of the word. It is difficult to find the proper balance when one has a solemn high mass going on in his head to match the music he is offering, whilst those in the sanctuary have a pretty low church mass in mind and deed. It is the latter which is at fault, not the former. Far too many priests just don't 'get it'. Far from faulting the music, people should expect more from the sanctuary.
  • Charles,

    I wouldn't trade places with Monsignor Marini for all the tea in China. As to the DM -- I wouldn't be asked, so that solves that problem.

    Jackson,

    Thank you for your kind comments.

    Cheers,

    Chris
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • 'Yea, zeal of thine house hath even eaten me': thus spake the Psalmist. As I was reflecting yet more on the subject here at hand I was reminded of two chants well known to all of us. 1) Terribilis est locus iste; hic domus Dei est, et porta caeli, and 2) Locus iste a Deo factus est, inaestimabile sacramentum, irreprehensibilis est. Yet, how often and how easily we at times forget where we are. We are in the vestibule of heaven, and far too often what we do (even at liturgy) there is wholly, preposterously, out of place - whether it be idle chatter, sloppiness in liturgy (by people and priest alike!), extraordinarily inappropriate and unworthy music, and more.

    Yes, our churches are each one the gate of heaven. Rereading Dante's Paradiso the other day, these words from canto XXII, ll. 7 ff, jumped out at me: first is H.W. Longfellow's translation, second is Allen Mandelbaum's. Each reflects, as a prism, an aspect subtly different of Dante's thought.

    1) And {Beatrice} to me: 'Knowest thou not thou art in heaven,
    And knowest thou not that heaven is holy all
    And what is done here cometh from good zeal?'

    2) she [Beatrice] said: 'Do you not know you are in Heaven,
    not know how holy all of Heaven is,
    how righteous zeal moves every action here?'

    Perhaps meditation on these words of Dante's, as well as the above introit and gradual for the dedication of a church, will quicken our zeal, purify our minds, enlighten our vision, and sober the choices we make in our various vocations, be they priestly, musical, diaconal, or the participation of the faithful. All are called upon, given unique charisms, to serve in the house of the Lord. For us musicians, we have an august heritage going back to the Levites and the temple. Let us fulfill our charism with a profound and holy zeal, satisfied with nothing but the finest of our craft, and offered with nothing less than the very best that we can do. To paraphrase Dante: 'knowest thou not we are in the vestibule of Heaven'. Yea, let all who breathe know it. Let righteous zeal move every action here. Heaven knows naught but perfection. Alas, all we can do here on earth is 'our best' - so let it be our Very Best.

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen melofluent
  • MJO, I am taken by your comment that we musicians may have a Solemn High Mass in our head, while the PiP's or priest have a Low Mass in theirs. I have encountered something akin to that, at least insofar as I feel that I am noticing all of the details (which Eucharistic Prayer? The flow of the liturgy; etc.). It seems the people don't acknowledge or appreciate those details - they haven't studied the liturgy, after all - and it affects their engagement.

    I got complaints the other day about all the chanting I did, when it was English throughout, and just the Sequence, Offertory antiphon, and Communion antiphon and psalm. Simple settings, Lumen Christi, and three distinct pieces, but very clear declamation of appropriate texts, and the processions were followed by good, familiar Pentecost hymns. They were not listening to the words, maybe they couldn't, since the music was chant. There is not a mindset that puts text first. It is about feeling.
  • They are good and faithful Catholics, don't get me wrong, but the "worship" isn't about getting closer to God, but about bring God down to us or about affirmation. These aren't revelations to any of you, but it seems to account for the "performance"-phobia.
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    The glory of God is man, fully alive. How is this achieved without an arc towards excellence, regardless of the talents/lack thereof of the individuals offering the music or the presumed/actual intelligence of the intended/circumstantial audience. The motivation of all active participants should be of offering the highest praise and gratitude with reverence and humility.

    The attentive silence of a prayerful assembly during a Palestrina motet speaks with as much (if not more) gravity as the loudest fortes of a Messiah chorus. This isn't a performance. This is prayer.


  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    ...speaks with as much (if not more) gravity as the loudest fortes of a Messiah chorus
    Yes!
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    All the reverence in the world from the sanctuary will not eliminate the performance attitude from the choir loft. And sometimes it is a matter of pruning the music.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Is God pleased by a beautiful performance? Not only that, but also by the prayers of those who are move by the beautiful performance.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    The best in this kind are but shadows, unless our imagination prayers amend them.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Like the Angelic Doctor, all we can offer is straw. So let ours, like his, be the superbest straw that we can find and do. And, as Stimson says, our best is but shadows: let, then, these shadows be so full of wonder as even to hint vaguely at what we will do above. They should leave all amazed that the glory of heaven could be so far more glorious than our mean shadows of straw.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    It is difficult to find the proper balance when one has a solemn high mass going on in his head to match the music he is offering, whilst those in the sanctuary have a pretty low church mass in mind and deed.


    Yes. If you read Benofy's recap of the Liturgical Revolution (Adoremus, 2010, 2 parts), you'll find that McManus et.al. envisioned the "low Mass" as the norm to justify the hymn-centric "participation" they sought--EVEN IF that "low Mass" included some minor singing of greeting/responses from priest and people.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    hymn-centric "participation"


    I have said this before, I will say it again ---
    Singing something that isn't part of the liturgy is a poor substitute for participation (actual or active).