Ember Saturday in the Octave of Pentecost
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    We may be singing an EF Missa Cantata on Ember Saturday. Is the following order correct:

    After the Kyrie is sung, there is a Collect and a Lesson followed by an Alleluia. Four more Lessons, Alleluias and Collects follow, and the Gloria in excelsis is said. (The Liber says, "Here the Gloria in excelsis is said."

    The Epistle is followed by a Tract and the Pentecost Sequence, and the rest of the Mass is as usual.

    Any corrections or notes about this Mass would be much appreciated!

    P.S. Do we sing the Asperges Me and Salve Regina since it is after Pentecost?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Not an expert, but I think the Salve Regina is the Marian antiphon starting with vespers & compline that evening.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks, Liam. BTW, did you hear about the TLM at St. Paul's in Harvard Square? Rheinberger's Mass is spectacular. Aren't you somewhere in that vicinity?

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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    I used to sing in the parish adult choir there for many years, but not any more, and I attend elsewhere.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,314
    The Vidi Aquam is definitely for Eastertide including Pentecost Sunday, but that doesn't matter since the sprinkling is only on Sundays. I have heard of it being done on 1st-class days, but there's no justification for it.

    I believe the Regina Caeli is sung through the Octave. The only places that would give you a good and consistent answer are the monasteries that use the traditional form of the Mass and monastic office. Switching before Trinity Sunday's Compline makes sense in the OF, since you aren't liturgically extending Pentecost through the Octave. But my books say keep it until after 2nd Vespers of Trinity Sunday.

    There is a short form of the Ember Saturday Mass, so make sure the priest and the schola are on the same page. For the Gloria question, I would compare your Liber to the Missale Romanum. Also, as much as I appreciate the full Gregorian melodies, the best way to do the majority of the extra chants is using Psalm tones... I visited Norcia for Ember Saturday of Lent, and the monks used the Gregorian melodies for the last chants (the ones after the Epistle). They did use the prophecy and Epistle tones for each reading.

    One kneels at the Ember Day collects, FWIW. I wish I could get to an Ember Saturday Sung/Solemn Mass...
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks so much for the excellent pointers, MatthewRoth. This helps a great deal! I'll take a look at the Missale Romanum as well---that's a very helpful suggestion.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    The Antiphonale Romanum (1912) says Regina coeli until after None of Ember Saturday after Pentecost, Salve Regina from 1st Vespers of Trinity onwards.

    And since the Ember Saturday after Pentecost is in Whitsuntide and thus in Easter time, Flectamus genua is not sung and therefore you don't kneel for the collects.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • ValeriaValeria
    Posts: 7
    The 1961 Breviary says that the Office of the Octave is concluded after None--and that Paschaltide ends when the Octave ends. However, the Liber says that Paschaltide ends after Mass ("Post Missam exspirat tempus Paschale.")
    As most probably don't say None during Mass, I think you have a little leeway here. For our Solemn High Mass, we will be singing the Regina Caeli as a Communion Meditation, and the Salve Regina to cover the exit. This honors both Our Lady's Saturday, and serves to mark the change in seasons for those less aware (or who will not be praying the Divine Office.)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Many thanks for the very informative notes! This is of great help.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    Perhaps the Liber is referring to the older practice of saying Conventual Mass after Terce, Sext or None according to the day: on Sundays and Feast Days, Mass is said after Terce, on ordinary weekdays and Simple Feasts after Sext and on weekdays of Advent or Lent, Ember Days and Vigils with Fasting after None. That was changed in 1962, so Conventual Mass is always said after Terce.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    We have sung this Mass before... We follow the older rubrics, but here is the congregation booklet we produced. (see below, this is the order as found in the St. Andrew Daily Missal / Missale Romanum.)

    From the LMS ordo,
    Where the practice exists of singing the antiphon of the BVM together with the appropriate versicle and response and prayer after Mass the following should be observed: From Easter Sunday to Whit Saturday inclusive, Regina caeli is sung.


    image
    Embersatpentecost.pdf
    198K
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Many thanks for the booklet, Tomjaw, and for the advice on the Regina Caeli.

    I was just starting to put something together and am so thankful for your beautiful handout which will save me a lot of time and effort! Next Saturday's Mass will be the First Mass of a priest who was ordained today.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Great line art. Perhaps attach the picture files?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The Line art is as found in the St. Andrew Daily Missal... Scans of most of the images (around 250) found therein can be downloaded from my friends at UVOC, http://uvoc.org/Propers.html

    One day I hope to upload the missing ones to a new website... including the extra 2 only found in the England, Wales and Scotland supplement. When I get a moment I will upload them to this thread.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen JulieColl Roborgelmeister
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I've always wondered where those lovely images are from. Thanks again for your handout.

    Re: when to sing the Regina Caeli, I found this note in the Liber Usualis for Ember Saturday: "After the celebration of the principal Mass on this day, Paschal Time comes to an end."
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