God as father, a musing prompted by a comment in another thread.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    And we Christians believe that all people, whether they personally believe it or not, are children of one Father.

    (from a comment by Fr Krisman in another thread)

    @FrKrisman (or anyone else with an interest): Could you expand a little on your comment? (Not being argumentative just being interested)

    I would take into consideration the following:

    John 8:44
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires.
    ==

    John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

    ==
    Romans 8:15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

    ==

    CCC 238 Many religions invoke God as "Father". The deity is often considered the "father of gods and of men". In Israel, God is called "Father" inasmuch as he is Creator of the world.59 Even more, God is Father because of the covenant and the gift of the law to Israel, "his first-born son".60 God is also called the Father of the king of Israel. Most especially he is "the Father of the poor", of the orphaned and the widowed, who are under his loving protection.61

    239 By calling God "Father", the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children.

    240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."64

    ===

    Would it be possible to argue the following:
    All men are children of God the Father in the sense that he is their creator, but not in the sense that they are his adopted sons.
    God is Father in the full sense only to those who have believed in Jesus receiving in Baptism adoption through the work of the Holy Spirit.

    Those who have not accepted Jesus, though having God as their creator, have the Devil as their father.

    Thoughts?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Would it be possible to argue the following:
    1. All men are children of God the Father in the sense that he is their creator, but not in the sense that they are his adopted sons.
    2. God is Father in the full sense only to those who have believed in Jesus receiving in Baptism adoption through the work of the Holy Spirit.
    3. Those who have not accepted Jesus, though having God as their creator, have the Devil as their father.

    1. Yes, as long as your assertion also includes women.

    2. I would not use "in the full sense." All people are God's children in the full sense. However, those joined to Christ additionally share in his unique sonship to the Father by adoption.

    3. That seems to be an extreme statement. In John 8 Jesus is addressing his coreligionists, members of the chosen people. God is truly their Father, but because of their works and their lack of faith, they give evidence to their allegiance to "your father the devil." That seems to me to be a metaphorical use of "father." The devil did not give them existence.
  • Designating God as Father is as old as our Judeo-Christian Faith. Nor are we alone in ascribing Fatherhood as the characteristic of deity. As for us Christians, this is a revealed truth. Jesus in every instance and without qualification referred to God as Father, as his Father, and, that by adoption, we are children of the Father. Reference to God as anything other than Father is conspicuously absent in all of Holy Writ, though the Spirit and Wisdom are, in places, given a feminine attribute. This would seem to be cut and dried. But, wait! The (quite illiberal) liberals and feminists of our time have taken to designating God as mother as often as Father, and, some of them even refer to God exclusively with feminine designations. These folk even concoct clever locutions that avoid reference to the actual manhood, the very real maleness, of Jesus. This is but another facet of the blurring of gender and of gender roles which serves the social and relational goals of feminists, their male allies, and most (quite illiberal) liberals as well. In response to this it seems to me that it should be possible to propose that feminine and masculine are indeed different ontological realities which, while some traits are common to both, are distinct, purposefully created by God (the Father) for distinct roles, purposes, and destinies. Both are human. Both are equal (in a juridical sense), but, as far as social and cultural roles and callings, they are unarguably, scientifically verifiably, quite different beings. Only those bent on wiping out the last vestiges of our Western Civilisation will disagree with this, and do so obstreperously and without regard to the least respect or politesse.

    So, let us have a discussion on what, exactly, are the ontological realities that distinguish masculine from feminine, manhood from womanhood, fatherhood from motherhood, and the blatant, existential reality of gender and its obligations. Further, do we not seem to live in a changed and changing culture that denigrates manhood and fatherhood while exalting womanhood and motherhood. A culture which more and more screams about equality, but, in fact, exalts the latter over the former, and does so without reservation in our legal system and court-case results, in the realities of married life, in the (mutual!) conception and bringing to birth of progeny, and more. Those who advocate incessantly for the 'ordination' of women do so from a position which effectively proclaims that priesthood is, after all, a uni-sex charism, and that no charisms exist which are specifically masculine or feminine (except, of course, when they wish to exempt women from this, that, or the other, because women do not wish, after all is said and done, to be 'that equal').

    God, then, is known to be Father. He is not known (with any verity) to be mother. What does this mean ontologically. He has, really, no gender in the sense in which we know it. He is not, actually male nor female in the sense in which we experience these realities. He could just as well be referred to without exception as 'God'. Why has he chosen to reveal himself (through scripture and the witness of his Son) as 'Father'. What, ontologically, does this mean? What does it mean in reference to specific charisms in Church and society?
    Thanked by 1Dave
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756

    1. Yes, as long as your assertion also includes women.



    Yes it includes women. (sigh)

    2. I would not use "in the full sense." All people are God's children in the full sense. However, those joined to Christ additionally share in his unique sonship to the Father by adoption.

    .


    Surely the fullest sense of being Gods son belongs only to Jesus who is Son by nature. All other senses must be other - whether it is son by adoption, or son by analogy because of being a creature of the creator.

    3. That seems to be an extreme statement. In John 8 Jesus is addressing his coreligionists, members of the chosen people. God is truly their Father, but because of their works and their lack of faith, they give evidence to their allegiance to "your father the devil." That seems to me to be a metaphorical use of "father." The devil did not give them existence


    Why is God truly their father?
    He is father by analogy as creator. He is father by Covenant - but they have departed from the covenant and can no longer claim this, hence Jesus suggestion that now the devil is their father. We are also sons by covenant, through baptism into the new covenant. The devil did not give them existence true, but he is the origin of their actions.
    Surely in this passage Jesus is arguing that although they think they are By nature sons of God, being Jewish, they are in fact sons by covenant, not by nature, and having departed from the covenant are now not sons at all. ( I am applying this only to that specific group to whom he was speaking at that time)
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Nor are we alone in ascribing Fatherhood as the characteristic of deity. As for us Christians, this is a revealed truth.


    MJO: the catechism distinguishes between the fatherhood of god ascribed to by other religions and the unique revelation of fatherhood which comes from Jesus.( as the quotes above show)

    Why has he chosen to reveal himself (through scripture and the witness of his Son) as 'Father'. What, ontologically, does this mean? What does it mean in reference to specific charisms in Church and society?


    Certainly interesting questions. Does the answer perhaps hinge around the way in which fathers and mother give life? The man gives life outside of himself, the woman by receiving into herself life from outside (not as a passive participant of course) Hence the male human can image God as Father in his transcendent otherness, giving life to others outside of himself, while the female human can image humanity, actively receiving life from God.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Maybe, God adopts us, but we adopt the devil?
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Hence the male human can image God as Father in his transcendent otherness, giving life to others outside of himself, while the female human can image humanity, actively receiving life from God.


    I'll just say, I have big problems with this...
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    It's a typology sometimes offered in relation to theology of the body.
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  • Except, Bonniebede, the normal female is not 'actively receiving life from God'. She receives it from a male, the husbandman. Your analogy is basically nice, but needs tweeking. The only woman who actually received life from God was the BVM. God was the Father of the Son she bore. This is unique. (I am laying aside for the moment the reality that, in a broader sense, we all, male and female, receive life [our very being] directly from God.)
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The man gives life outside of himself, the woman by receiving into herself life from outside

    It's a typology sometimes offered in relation to theology of the body.


    It's biologically ridiculous.
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Gavin
  • Um, speaking of biological ridiculosity, Adam: what about the virgin birth, an incontestable article of the Christian Faith? And, being born of his Mother whilst leaving her virginity intact is not the only time he passed bodily through a physical obstacle without harm to it or himself: we are told that after his resurrection he passed through a closed door in the upper room.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    The sperm is no more "life" than the "egg". About 200 years ago, we discovered the human "semen" is not seed, and the womb is not merely an incubation chamber.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Fussy, fussy. The idea is an archetype, a parable. But mention it and out come the literalists.

    For that matter, one can probably rephrase it in clinically correct terms and the symbolic elements remain.
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  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    Fussy, fussy. The idea is an archetype, a parable.


    Fair enough, as long as we don't draw any more conclusions from this archetype than we do from talk about the sky being a dome.
  • Richard,

    I think the problems go beyond the merely clinical (as Adam suggests), perduring to encompass any reference to the Theology of Christopher West.

    Count me with Alice Von Hildebrand on that one.
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I think there is a lot more to the idea in the mystical tradition than can be realistically excised from Christianity, particularly (but by no means exclusively) in reflections on the Song of Songs.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood bonniebede
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Um, speaking of biological ridiculosity, Adam: what about the virgin birth, an incontestable article of the Christian Faith? And, being born of his Mother whilst leaving her virginity intact is not the only time he passed bodily through a physical obstacle without harm to it or himself: we are told that after his resurrection he passed through a closed door in the upper room.


    Those are super natural events, not poor readings of natural biology.
    Thanked by 1bonniebede
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Except, Bonniebede, the normal female is not 'actively receiving life from God'. She receives it from a male, the husbandman. Your analogy is basically nice, but needs tweeking. The only woman who actually received life from God was the BVM.


    Indeed, nor was this what I was implying in my probably clumsily expressed comment. Humanity receives life from God, who creates us ex nihilo.
    Procreation differs from this in a major sense - it is not ex nihilo as far as our physical nature is concerned, but mediated through the action of the parents, and our souls are created directly ex nihilo without any contributing action on the part of the parents. (not denying that the original source material used by our parents was created too, )
    Nonetheless, human generation shows us something about the relationship between God and humanity - this is explicitly taught in Romans 1:19 - All creation (including humans) shows something of the invisible nature of God.
    Surely our reflection on creation to see in it the hidden things of God must include reflection on the ways in which humans, both individually and collectively show something of Gods nature.
    So what does it show? And in particular, what does masculinity and femininity show?