Is it time to dismiss this choir?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    http://bit.ly/1IIljuD
    Thanked by 5JanDen JulieColl ClergetKubisz eft94530 Heath
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    lol!
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • JanDen
    Posts: 23
    Ben Yanke - LOL!!!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    JanDen,
    Perhaps a pre-emptive tactic for those who'd ignore the dismissal.
    Ask your pastor to compose (or accept you composing) a brief memo on church stationary that attests to his formal and unwavering support for any and all personnel decisions you make as regards this and any other musical enterprises you direct. He signs it, you duplicate a handful and keep them handy.
    C
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I brought up the question because I think the wiser approach is to DISSOLVE THE CHOIR and then reconstitute it, NOT simply fire the bad actors and try to carry on.

    Also, there are (probably?) a couple people who might seem to be in the "to go" list who would actually be willing and able to stay and behave themselves, given a different environment.

    Dissolve the choir. Do Mass without them for a couple weeks. Then have "auditions" and see who shows up.
    Thanked by 6JanDen ClergetKubisz Ben eft94530 CHGiffen StephenMatthew
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Adam for the win as usual.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood Ben JanDen eft94530
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    Even though this us a difficult situation, remember that Lord said "my yolk is easy..."
    Thanked by 4williamjm EMH JanDen Gavin
  • EMH
    Posts: 47
    "...And My bird is light."

    The early bird, that is.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    And the sister said "Fac meam diem!"
    Thanked by 2JanDen Heath
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,217
    Would it be useful to replace the current choir with two choirs (women and men)? You might get enough women passing the audition to start that group first, and show some good results.

    Now, all you need is for one of us to come and visit your church as a "music consultant", listen to a Mass, and give you a report with recommendations of what you wanted to do anyway, so that the pastor can order you to do that. That should provide any necessary "cover".
    Thanked by 2JanDen StephenMatthew
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 968
    I think I like the idea of culling the problem children... no reason to punish all. Who knows... some of the better singers may quietly rejoice with you.

    I have had to occasionally ask a choir member not to return until they can meet the standards of behavior (most recently, a loud, obnoxious man who continually came to rehearsals three sheets to the wind -- I gave him a stern warning first, saying that he absolutely could not drink before coming to rehearsals. I ended up having to tell him that he was done). I informed the pastor of both the warning and the dismissal...

    Admittedly, it isn't the same situation you have had, but the other choir members are very happy to see him gone -- he was quite a disruptive influence.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 445
    Are you praying for the members of this choir, every day? I'd suggest that you should be doing this now and should continue doing so even if the choir is dissolved at the end of this season. Also be praying for (as well as looking for :-) ) the replacement singers who might join any new venture that replaces the current one.
    Thanked by 2JanDen StimsonInRehab
  • vansensei
    Posts: 220
    Actually, I'd go even farther. Have callbacks. Give people who pass the first audition a 4-part hymnal and see if they can blend with the ensemble. You'll probably already know who's serious about it at this point.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Another vote for dissolution. Raze it to the ground and build entirely new. Adam said a few weeks but I might go with a few months. When the new translation was about to be due my former parish spent a few months preparing the congregation for the changes. To that end, I'd say use the downtime to prepare the congregation (all contingent on pastoral approval natch) for a complete rebuild of all the music program so you can clear out any djembe/rain stick/electric bass/Haugen/Has/Schutte detritus.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    The reason I suggested a gentler replacement approach is because I wouldn't want to antagonize all the parishioners. If the whole music program gets blown away and Mass is miserable for months, you'll have no friends left. If you were building a wonderful new sanctuary, people could put up with construction pain because they can see the progress. If they can't see progress, then every Mass becomes a painful reminder.

    It's not just about the choir.
    Thanked by 4Andrew_Malton melofluent PaxMelodious JanDen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,217
    For a less drastic transition, you could break the schedule up: give some Sundays to the current choir, and some to the new group(s) that you form; and even reserve some for cantor and organ.
    Thanked by 2janetgorbitz JanDen
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    The reason I suggested a gentler replacement approach is because I wouldn't want to antagonize all the parishioners


    If I'm reading JanDan between the lines correctly, far from antagonizing, it would be greeted like the U.S. Army liberating Paris in '44.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Perhaps true, Scott. But I hesitate, being a more cautious type. Doing a "total reboot" approach is dangerous at the parish scale.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • StephenMatthew
    Posts: 112
    Why not just give the choir a break? An indefinite "summer vacation" after the present season is over? Use the excuse of summer travels, people wanting to spend time with kids/grand-kids, etc. which many parish choirs do in any case. You could perhaps invite select members to cantor over the summer "break" (perhaps select small ensembles). This may allow you to avoid an immediate confrontation.

    Then in late summer start an auditioning process, be clear up front about the overall purpose of liturgical music, get the pastor to provide something about his liturgical/musical vision, list specific goals, standards, etc. for the choir. Try to take a positive approach ("though shall" rather than "though shalt not"). Make signing onto the program part of the auditioning process. Just make sure your expectations are reasonable, enforceable, clearly communicated, and supported by the pastor.
    Thanked by 3Jeffrey Quick JanDen MarkThompson
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    I would TOTALLY take advantage of summer to make a change. Many choirs take time off, downshift, or otherwise reformulate during the summer. Starting off with changes in the fall then isn't so disruptive.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Sorry, Carl, beg to disagree. Our choristers are basically free to choose to participate in summer, and for that matter any given Sunday (as circumstances provide,) but the choir is never furloughed. And now that Heath and others are filling out the rep, and having good sight readers, a choir of 3/4 folks on a CenCA 107F Sunday can still sing Lassus!
    They come to Mass to sing 'caus'in they wants to, not cause I need a break from flappin' my arms.
    Thanked by 2JanDen Carl D
  • JanDen
    Posts: 23
    StephenMatthew, your suggestion is the current Pastor and Asst Pastor's direction. Yesterday I was instructed to continue to direct this miserable choir until Pentecost. I confess I'm really struggling because many blatantly won't follow basic guidelines; Why continue? The choir will then be told to enjoy their summer. I'm to then start forming another auditioned choir that will take the place of the old one.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    If it were me, I would do nothing interesting or exciting. Just sing the hymns, ordinary and if you do them, the propers. To spice things up, find an instrumentalist who may add a descant here or there.

    Keep it simple and know that this too will pass!
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Different choirs do different things, Melo. I just see a lot which seem to become a bit more relaxed - after all, it's Ordinary Time, and lots of people are taking vacations at random times. So it can be a bit harder to be well organized.

    The schola I'm in now is particularly blessed with some very talented musicians who are, to a person, dedicated to the Church. A wide variety of ages from 20 to 70. But still, travel schedules mean that summer involves simpler music, and some weeks aren't quite SATB.
    Thanked by 2melofluent JanDen
  • Brian Michael Page
    Posts: 157
    At this point, YES, disband them. The sooner, the better. It sounds like your clergy is supporting you on this, so if they have a problem, "Talk to Father" might just be legitimate.
    BMP
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JanDen
  • StephenMatthew
    Posts: 112
    JanDen, I hope it all works out, I know it can be frustrating when you want to see change now, but must bide your time. The good news is you will have a chance to build something new from the ground up. The interlude between this soon to expire choir and the new one should give you some time to plan and prepare and get things started correctly from the beginning.

    Now, as to those discussing "summer breaks" for choirs more generally, while that is perhaps a separate topic, I will say I am not generally in favor of more than a few weeks being taken, but it is sometimes an unavoidable matter. Even a very committed choir will tend to have lower attendance in summer due to people being out of town more frequently. For less committed choirs, there seems to be a steady drop off after Easter.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 68
    JanDen, do let us know how things work out come fall. All (I dare say) of us here are on your side, including those of us who mostly lurk.... In the meantime - Pentecost being only a month away - why not get some supernatural mileage out of your remaining choir practices by offering up their trials for a specific intention?

    God bless you!
    Thanked by 2EMH JanDen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    It should at least count as time off Purgatory, no?
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Will be praying for you, and getting our childrens schola to remember you in Adoration.
    Thanked by 1JanDen
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    It's necessary to step back and realize that , when you and the pastor are gone, these people will probably be back and things will go into a slump again. But during the time that you are you are igniting a spark that will live on in some.
    Thanked by 2JanDen hilluminar
  • JanDen
    Posts: 23
    Thank you all for your support and prayers. I'll keep you updated. Four more weeks to go...
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Concerning a break for the summer: we used to sing through July and take August and the first half of September off. One year, the first Sunday of August, I attended the Mass, which was low Mass, since there was no choir, I saw about eight members of the choir there, so I said, we might as well be singing, so we now take no break in the summer. I have to be away some of the time, but there are people who can capably take my place.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I am a big advocate for Summers off, primarily because it gives the choir season a clear "beginning" and "end."

    While some new choir members might be fine auditioning and joining mid-season, some people might feel uncomfortable joining an established group "mid-stream." Joining at the beginning of a new season gives folks the feeling of coming in and not having already missed several events and not knowing several pieces.

    I recently implemented this in a church that had always sung "all the time" - the result? 12 new voices that passed the audition at the beginning of the season. When talking to some other choir members, they informed me that was more new blood than the choir had gotten in the previous 4-5 years combined. I don't believe the change in musical idioms was the reason for this (though it might have been part), but rather the thought of joining a group at the beginning and not mid-stream.

    It also allows for an "end of a season" - when people can gracefully drop off without looking like they are quitting, or where you can quietly cut people that might be trouble or might not have passed the audition in the first place.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Gavin
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    We sing at 11:30 am. We are out of church at 1:00. This takes away half of Sunday. Warm, sunny, summer Sundays are precious around here and my choristers are quite grateful to enjoy them in July and August.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 445
    I guess summers off makes sense if you see your mission being to run a choir. But what if it is to enhance the community's workship through music - what do you do when the choir is absent?
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    We have a good cantor and organist at every Mass in the summer.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Spriggo
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    But what if it is to enhance the community's workship through music - what do you do when the choir is absent?


    What if the choir experiences burnout by singing intensive sacred music year round? Running a great choir and providing music for worship are not exclusive goals.

    And plus, the musical demands of the Roman Rite are met by simply one cantor and no organ, singing the propers of the Mass, the ordinary, and nothing else which I think is good for everyone to experience, at least once and a while.

    There's something very beautiful in the simplicity and austerity of gregorian propers, ordinary, the sung prayers from the priest, the schola or people responding, and silence. Nothing else. It's worth experiencing.
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood EMH ClergetKubisz Gavin ZacPB189
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    God doesn't take summer off.
    Thanked by 5melofluent CHGiffen StimsonInRehab canadash eft94530
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,099
    God has climate control. Many older churches don't, and can be infernal in the summer because of the need to seal windows all-year round to conserve on heating bills in longer winter climate zones.....
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,983
    Perhaps God is not as sick of some of those folks as I am by the time we get to summer. Vacations are good - should be in scripture somewhere. ;-)
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    There is nothing that says that the choir has to go during the summer or has to stay.

    My choir goes into semi-retirement during the summer: No anthems, no long rehearsals; only a very simple ordinary setting*, those who can come 1/2 hour early learn the [seasonal] propers from LCSG**, A few standard hymns and some organ rep to fill in the time. There are some days when we simply do a "Low Mass" during the Summer. We used to officially sing the whole year, but people (myself included) got a little burnt out at the end of the Lent-Easter-Confirmation season, and what with various people going on holiday, it was hard to find days when everyone was there.

    * Kyrie No. 2 from Mass V of the Kyriale Simplex; "Mozarabic" Gloria in English; Sanctus XVIII; Agnus ad lib II.

    ** For those who were wondering about a prior "situation" in the parish, that has righted itself, and we are back of track. Many prayers (and complaints) affected an astonishing change!
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Carl DCarl D
    Posts: 992
    Vacations are good - basically the idea of Sabbath, right?
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Nobody is suggesting that there should be NO MUSIC or NO MASS during Summer.
    Thanked by 2Ben Adam Wood
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    What if the choir experiences burnout by singing intensive sacred music year round? Running a great choir and providing music for worship are not exclusive goals.
    If singers are not excited about singing and are burning out and want summers off...the director needs replacement. Salieri's approach is a rational one to his situation.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Noel,

    Excitement is never a good measure of anything except excitement.

    God bless,

    Chris
    Thanked by 2Gavin Ben
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    People who are especially committed to what they are doing are probably the ones most in need of a break from it.
    Thanked by 5Liam kevinf Gavin EMH Ben
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    I have no problem with letting the choir out for the summer. It's the tradition in my parish, so I keep up that tradition. In the summer we do things with cantor/soloist and organ or piano, and we sometimes do duets or other small ensembles. It's a nice break from the texture of the large group, and it gives people an opportunity to do solos or ensembles without displacing a choral motet. The summer also presents an excellent time to develop more singers to do that kind of music.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The thread has somewhat digressed, but it might serve the discussion to point out that choristers' real lives do regularly interrupt or mitigate their commitment to consistent attendance at rehearsals and Masses. I don't keep stringent participation rules as precedents to participation. But after 23 years of the core of the schola remaining intact, the newbies who come into the mix get the intent and passion we all share for adorning every schola Mass with prepared choral works, even during summer. As the biological shifts occur, I have to shift more towards variable voicing and fewer opportunities for augmented voicings, even to the point of S(S)ATB or the like. But if you can have a tenure of a minimum number of years, you can build a core repertoire of choral works to suit the propers' intent and which can be touched up just before summer Masses. If we really want to digress seriously, someone figure out how I can be absent from Sunday Masses more than a couple of weekends per year.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    someone figure out how I can be absent from Sunday Masses more than a couple of weekends per year


    And make sure you tell us when you find out.
    Thanked by 1janetgorbitz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    My choir director leaves town sometimes, but he leaves me in charge. Since he's also the principle bass of the choir, and his son (usually gone with him) is the second-chair bass, we don't often sing 4-parts when he's gone, but we manage tolerably well enough.

    God bless,

    Chris
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