Ordinary parts in Latin, is it mendatory or desired?

miacoyne

I need to ask a very basic question.

The Sacrosanctum Councilium No. 54 says--steps shoould be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain them.

It also says---
And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

I would like to know what's the exact requirement for the churches, which are not in missionary countries. Are the Masses in US required to have Latin Ordinaries or it's just optional?

Aristotle Esguerra

As far as I can read it, it's a matter of will and inertia.

Steps should be taken so that the faithful may say or sing the Latin Ordinary. But In the lack of definitive leadership from those we believe should take the lead — the ordained stewards of the liturgy and those to whom they delegate authority — who should take the lead? I think those that are able to teach them well should take the lead, regardless of their standing.

The Masses in the United States, as far as I'm aware, are not required to have Latin Ordinaries; in fact Msgr. Overath in Sacred Music and Liturgical Reform shows that many diocesan offices of worship issued directives that effectively mothballed the Latin Ordinary back in the '60s. I like to think of SSC 54 as a tug on the ecclesial conscience though, especially as it starts with the troublesome "Nevertheless," which for some reason made it past the watchful gaze of the English translators. :)

If a sufficient number of the faithful learned them well — learning them outside of the context of the Mass seems the only viable option in some places — the question could be posed en masse to the powers that be: we know these, when can we actually use them where they're meant to be used?

miacoyne

Thank you so much Aristotle for the clear info.

I am very disappointed at my parish, which I've been a parishioner for 15 years (and worked for it as much as I can) notified us that it is adding another 'Mass with contemporary group' on Sundays. (actually it is replacing the Mass with a cantor) We already have a mass with a contemporary and another Mass with youth which sings mostly contemporary. And the Mass with Adult choir also sings lots of Haas and Haugen. (They often refer them as a traditional choir) There's no truly traditional mass in our parish.
I really want to ask our priests why? and whether this is helping us to preserve our catholic tradition in the Liturgy and in our faith, that they often talk about? I guess I can't and I won't. It's their decision. I was hoping somewhere in Church documents that the Latin should be preserved and required in the Mass.
I guess our schola will be just keep singing Gregorian chants on Saturday morning Masses. (Our priests don't think Gregorian chants will work on Sunday Masses, at least in our parish.)

Daniel Bennett Page

Mia, I am so sorry to hear about the disappointing musical situation in your parish. Unfortunately, a very high percentage of priests in the Archdiocese of Baltimore have little or no idea about what constitutes musical excellence as defined by the Church. They simply have never heard the real message of the V2 documents and the liturgical principles taught by the Magisterium before and after the Council. Their lack of exposure (and therefore understanding) is sadly very widespread and is, as in lots of dioceses mired in similarly problematic practices, reinforced by many of the curial functionaries at 'central office' downtown. While great strides have been made on many fronts in Baltimore during the last year (truly fundamental ones, in some cases), there is much still to be accomplished. I'm writing this as an open note mainly because this is a situation found in a majority of Catholic parishes. Remember: Arius seemed to be winning for quite a while!

miacoyne

Thanks, Daniel,

Maybe our priests are being more realistic and I'm just being too idealistic.

Gavin

Not at all Mia. We have the option to use Latin or another tongue. We do NOT have the option to have a laity who can't respond at a Mass in Latin! Although it would indeed be impractical for the Church to mandate X number of Masses with Latin ordinaries per year or something, Sacrosanctam Concillium does IMPLY that you should be using Latin at your church often enough that the congregation is comfortable with it and knows their responses and acclamations. So keep up the good work!!

miacoyne

Thanks, Gavin. I will stick around in my parish until it's time for me to find a church where I can be nourished and hear sacred music.

anneew

Greetings. Can someone direct me to the authoritative answer on the question of whether women are permitted to be full members of the Schola Cantorum for the purpose of singing the Propers at the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (Latin in accordance with the 1962 Missal)? Our Schola is very small and we only have three men, who could use some assistance in the way of volume and pitch that we think can be accomplished by allowing the women to join them on the Propers. We alreayd chant together the Ordinary and perform some polyphony. Thanks for your guidance.

Pes

Mia, you have the patience of a saint.

If I were a pastor, I would say this to any stiff-necked parishioners who complain about a dozen or so words in Latin:

Grow up.

The Latin Ordinary is not rocket science. Here for example is the Big Bad Bewildering Sanctus, for which you have to go to Rome to learn the Latin at the feet of hard taskmaster type Jesuits of Yore who glare at you whilst polishing their holy knuckles of painful chastisement:

Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth! Pleni sunt caeli et terra gloria tua! Hosanna in excelsis! Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini! Hosanna in excelsis!

Clearly this is beyond the capacity of mortal men and women to understand, so I will break it down for you. Raise your hand if I go too fast:

Sanctus = Holy, as in "sanctified"
Dominus Deus = Lord God
Sabaoth = Sabbath
pleni = full, as in "plenty"
sunt = are
caeli et terra = heaven and earth (as in celestial, terrestrial)
gloria = glory
tua = your
hosanna = hosanna
in = in
excelsis = the highest (think 'excellence')
benedictus = blessed (think 'benediction')
qui = who
venit = comes (think 'Advent')
in = in
nomine = the name
Domini = of the Lord
etc.

I am betting this will take you less time to absorb than some gratuitously syncopated melody with novel or changed lyrics from SacroPop, Inc.

While I'm at it, here is the Agnus Dei:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis (or: dona nobis pacem).

Agnus = Lamb
Dei = of God
qui = who
tollis = takes (think 'paying a toll')
peccata = the sin (remember 'peccadilloes'? these are worse)
mundi = of the world
miserere = have mercy!
nobis = on us
dona = give (donate)
nobis = to us
pacem = peace

That's a tough one, alright.

Bonus: "Kyrie" means "Lord" and "eleison" means "have mercy" in Greek. Extra points if you can guess what "Christe" means.

Thanks.

PS -- Latin is still the official language of the Roman Catholic Church.
PPS -- Doubtless the same people who discourage Latin would encourage us to learn Spanish. The ironies, they do tend to pile up, don't they?

Gavin

Pes, I did that exact same thing with an elderly woman who complained about singing the refrain of "Attende Domine" in Latin (just the refrain, I didn't use the verses as they do have some really hard Latin) because "I don't know what the words mean." I opened a hymnal and said slowly, "Attende Domine, Hear, Lord. Et miserere, and have mercy. Quia peccavimus tibi, because we sinned against you. There. Now you know what it means." She was not amused, to say the least.

priorstf

Anneew - I believe what you seek is found in the encyclical Musicae Sacrae of Pope Pius XII from December 25,1955. The primary section reads as follows:

74. Where it is impossible to have schools of singers or where there are not enough choir boys, it is allowed that "a group of men and women or girls, located in a place outside the sanctuary set apart for the exclusive use of this group, can sing the liturgical texts at Solemn Mass, as long as the men are completely separated from the women and girls and everything unbecoming is avoided. The Ordinary is bound in conscience in this matter."

Note that the quotation marks are in the original document but I don't know what they reference.

chonak

I would recommend that people not get into scruples about that particular regulation. As Msgr. Perl of the Ecclesia Dei commission indicated in a recent letter (16 July 2008), "custom and usage in the course of more recent decades have modified some of the strict requirements in the documents which you have cited."

priorstf

Chonak - You lead a more gifted life than some of us! :) Can you give a specific citation to Msgr. Perl's letter? We have a couple of very vocal folks who are adamant that women are not permitted to sing the Propers except to accompany the males. They cite the 1903 Encyclical of Pope Pius X, claim that the 1955 Encyclical of Pope Pius XII is subject to varying interpretations, and propose that anything written in more recent times applies only to the Ordinary Form.

chonak

It's hidden away on the front page of the CMAA site. :-)

Here's the news item. (You'll have to scroll down the document to get to Msgr. Perl's letter.)

priorstf

Perfect. Thank you!

eft94530

priorstf: "Note that the quotation marks are in the original document but I don't know what they reference."

The paragraph ends with a footnote number which points to:
26. Decrees of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, No's. 3964, 4201, 4231.

Here is the official source ...

www.vatican.va
The Holy See English
Papal Archive
Pius XII
Encyclicals
Musicae Sacrae (December 25, 1955)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_25121955_musicae-sacrae_en.html

More and more documents are appearing online there.
In 2008 the Vatican search engine switched to Google.
Life is getting easier.

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