5 syllable Alleluia
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Has anyone else seen a 5 syllable setting: Al-le-lu-i-a

    in any music they've come across? My boss has found some music he'd like me to use, but I am unsure of the provenance of this particular setting of the text. Isn't it hacking up the name of God to split the syllables of "Ya" in this way? I am not a Hebrew scholar, but if anyone help, please chime in.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    That's the way they sing it in Slavonic. Listen, eg., to a recording of Rachmaninoff's vespers.
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    Yes, I've seen it in several Orthodox examples. But what is its precedent? Why is it done?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    I'm no linguist but I think it's just the way borrowed vowels and semi vowels develop in Slavonic languages. For example in Polish (the only one I know) the word "Maria" has two syllables (accent on 'ma) and is a personal name; but when referring to the Blessed Virgin they write "Maryja" and pronounce it with three (accent on 'ry).
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    You're correct -- it's an artifact of the Slavonic transliteration of the word by Ss. Cyril (from whom we get the term Cyrillic referring to the alphabet used for Russian and some other Slavic languages) and Methodius. In Slavonic the word is spelled I-YA on the end, so it becomes five syllables rather than four.

    Curiously, in Hebrew it's only three syllables -- there is a silent letter between the first and second L. So you could see it transliterated legitimately as "Hal'luyah." Of course, in practical terms, it is still four syllables because the silent letter is pronounced as a schwah sound, much like the modern-day colloquial English pronunciation.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    It's interesting to note that, just as in Latin, the initial H became silent in Slavonic because the Kievans had no H as such -- just a ch (which is presumably why Cyril and Methodius chose the Greek chi to represent this sound). In the original Hebrew, the H is pronounced more or less like the English H in Hallelujah.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 776
    In the western chant tradition, the use of a liquescent neume on the penultimate syllable of the word has been interpreted as lifting the "i" enough to make it sound like another syllable. I prefer to render these as diphthongs, moving to the "i" about half-way through the liquid note. However, in manuscripts of early polyphony, the "i" (often "y") frequently receives its own note, so somebody in Europe was doing it this way. In modern performance, unless you are obsessed with authentic early music performance practice, it will be a distraction that leaves your audience members scratching their collective heads.
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,425
    It is sung with '5 syllables' in some English renaissance polyphony. This was at one time the way it was pronounced in English. You may find some recordings of Byrd's Sacerdotes Domini and other such anthems with Al-le-lu-i-a sung that way. Weelkes' renowned Alleluia, I heard a voice is another example. Some of us over here follow suit occasionally. In chant, when singing alleluia properly (according to semiological usage) when a liquescent neume is involved one does end up with a very similar pronunciation. Such historic English pronunciations include 'na-ti-ons' and others.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    I'm just home from singing the quintuplets of Penderecki's Cherubic Hymn and yes, five syllables are obligatory in Slavonic. Even in the Solesmes books one will see liquescent neums for the j, which can be taken as a number somewhat greater than 4 syllables.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,210
    Such historic English pronunciations include 'na-ti-ons' and others.
    The English language of William Byrd's time frequently had more syllables (and sometimes fewer) syllables than our present day English. For example, the Magnificat of The Great Service of William Byrd has:

    "and my spirit re-joic-eth in God my Sa-vi-our" (note that "spirit" is one syllable)
    "For be-hold from hence-forth all ge-ne-ra-ti-ons shall call me bless-ed"
    "For he that is migh-ty hath mag-ni-fi-ed me"
    "through-out all ge-ne-ra-ti-ons"
    "He hath show-ed strength with his arm"
    "He hath scat-ter-ed the proud in the i-ma-gi-na-ti-on of their hearts"
    "He hath fill-ed the hun-gry with good things"
    "He re-mem-b'ring his mer-cy"
    "As he pro-mis-ed to our fore-fa-ther, A-bra-ham"

    And in the Nunc Dimittis:

    "For mine eyes have seen thy sal-va-ti-on"
    "Which thou hast pre-par-ed be-fore the face of all peo-ples"

    The situation with "Al-le-lu-ia" versus "Al-le-lu-i-a" is also a bit similar to that of
    "Ky-ri-e e-lei-son" versus "Ky-ri-e e-le-i-son" - not to mention that sometimes one encounters "Ky-rie" (two syllables) instead of "Ky-ri-e" (three syllables), and sometimes the final "-e" of "Ky-ri-e" is combined with the initial "e-" of "e-le-i-son" (or of "e-lei-son").

    John Taverner's Alleluya I & II have the five syllable "Alleluya". And his "Kyrie Leroy" has both combined "-e e" and "e-lei-son" (scores attached).

    Taverner-Alleluya I, II.pdf
    88K
    Taverner-Kyrie Leroy.pdf
    58K
    Kyrie Leroy.mp3
    3M
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  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    The earliest chant manuscripts show a pronunciation of Al-le-lui-a, not al-le-lu-ya (we know this because of the use of liquescence). While "ya" can be heard as a single syllable (the y acting as a glide and not as a vowel), it's hard to imagine "ui" on one pitch not sounding like two syllables. So I'd say yes, there's quite precedent for a five syllable pronunciation.
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,425
    No matter how one pronounces 'alleluya' it has five syllables. The only point of difference is how long and 'pronounced' (prominent) the 'y' or 'i' is. One cannot say 'ya' or 'ia' without first saying 'ee' and then lowering the tongue for 'ah'. Still, there are, as chronicled above, numerous historical pronunciations, musical and otherwise, that give the 'ee' unimpeachable syllabic status.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    One cannot say 'ya' or 'ia' without first saying 'ee' and then lowering the tongue for 'ah'.


    image

    Which is why the "y is sometimes a vowel and sometimes a consonant" thing they teach is school is total BS.

    Also, W.

    W IS A VOWEL. IN FACT, IT'S TWO VOWELS STUCK TOGETHER!!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    That's... totally not true. By this definition the French word "je" has two syllables. Huh? Just because there are two sounds that have pitch? No, it's not the position of the tongue but the length of the sound that determines whether or not is is a vowel (and therefore constitutes its own syllable). It's entirely possible for the i to be pronounced as a glide. This short version even has a separate phoneme in IPA: [j] as opposed to [i].

    The word "ye" is one syllable, the word "ear" is one syllable, and— like it or not—the word "year" is... also one syllable, even though it contains all the sounds of two one syllable words.
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  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    The vowels in english
    a, e, i, o, u,
    and sometimes Y and w.

    rhYme.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    and sometimes always Y and w.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    and sometimes Y and w.

    rhYthm.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Adam Wood, now I know you're trolling.

    "Who, what, when, where, why" come to mind, as do "law" " and "wrought" to name but a few.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "who" and "wrought" have silent "w" --- the first phoneme is the h and r, respectively.

    "what", "when", "where", and "why" all perfectly illustrate "w" as a vowel. The first phoneme --- the one we associate with "w" is "oo"

    The "w" in "law" affects the "a" in a similar (but different) way as the "u" in "Laugh" and "Laudamus" or the "e" in "same".
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,210
    The "w" in "law" affects the "a" in a similar (but different) way as the "u" in "Laugh" and "Laudamus" or the "e" in "same".
    The "w" in "law" affects the "a" in a manner very much like the way the "u" in "naught" or "auto" affects the "u" in these words.

    One can "comb" through the literature to find that "cwm" (nominally a Welsh word, but somewhat widely used and often respelled as "coomb", "combe" or even "comb") is a word with "w" as a standalone vowel, pronounced "oo". But let's not enter that valley, one with a "cirque" whose circle does not remain unbroken.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,824
    We're dealing with different definitions of 'vowel'. My linguistics professor loved to tell how his schoolmates picked up the expression "oo-ah-oo" from an exchange student without realizing it was a version of "wow". If r and l are always consonants, how many syllables in "circle"?
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