One of the best men in my choir isn't Catholic, but he's retired and has plenty of time on his hands to sing with us. I notice that the other men in the group really step it up when he's there, probably because they're competitive and don't want to look like idiots.

ml88,
As a "guy" director, I've encountered a number of stereotypical males over 45 years. I still have "guys" in our (contemporary) ensemble who literally think the object of the game is to out-sing, in volume and imprecision, the other five guys. That's why they're in ensemble, not schola.The truth of the matter is that it wouldn't occur to guys like these that they not only look like idiots, but they sound like idiots. I'd bet two dollars to your doughnut that adding ringers in company with these egos will only provoke them to further "look at ME!!!" behaviors and worse consequences.
Picking up where I left off, dismiss them. Then entertain any new volunteers' interest with a response like "I need to schedule an "interview" (audition) with you at your convenience. I'm very pleased to know of your interest."
Audition is not only for "big parishes." It's for insightful directors.

I wonder if the men's attitudes would change if you were able to recruit a couple of really, really good male singers

There's a guy in town who teaches at the university and he's an expert on chant. I have asked him if he wouldn't mind giving a little chant class for our little church choir. He said he'd be happy to do it. That was a year ago and it hasn't happened yet for a number of reasons but mostly because I don't want to waste the professor's valuable time getting the slackers to sing the right notes. I am also concerned about a clash of egos. One of the guys seems to have a bias against classically trained musicians. He says I'm an exception, but that most of them are horses' behinds. He has relayed to me on more than one occasion the story about some guy who went to college to study voice and they told him he wasn't cutting it so he quit and became a famous country singer. So, "obviously", they don't know what they're doing in those schools. I tried to explain that you don't go to college to learn to become a country singer, but it didn't make an impression.

I don't envy your position, Pocket. But on the bright side, it sounds like these gentlemen aren't endearing themselves to you, are they?

It would be rough if the person dragging the choir is very close to you. I know in my case, one of my best friends is a regular attendee at our chant group, and has helped recruit quite a few others - but he is a work in progress. Can't keep on pitch, can't remember when extra rehearsals are, never looks at music outside of rehearsal. How does one handle that?

How does one handle that?

Pray.

I highly commend providing MIDI files or CDs for training on parts. FWIW, my experience is that it's not been typical for such to be provided by music directors.

If you could just send them off to a pizza parlor for an hour during rehearsal time, you could simplify your life and theirs too.

Especially if they brought you some wings and beer for your bedtime snack.

They probably don't want to sing in a really united way; they don't want to sing chant. They show up because their wives are there.

I'm sure this is true with one of them. But if he doesn't want to sing, why does he do it so loudly? If he just sat there, I wouldn't care.

The other has actually taken off work and driven a few hours, at his own expense - including a night's stay in a hotel room - to sing a Requiem he doesn't know. Such trips are totally voluntary. (The first guy won't do it.) How do you tell a guy that drove 3+ hours and spent $100+ dollars of his own money that he can't sing because he didn't bother to learn it?

How do you tell a guy that drove 3+ hours and spent $100+ dollars of his own money that he can't sing because he didn't bother to learn it?

Like this:
'You can't sing because you don't know this piece'
But I drove for three hours....
'Yes, that was a long way. But you can't sing because you don't know this piece. Would you like a cd of the piece to listen to on the way home, then you might know it next time it comes up?'
'But I spent $100 getting here'
Yes, travel is very expensive isn't it. I find it cost me a lot of money and effort to be here and ready to sing too. But you can't sing this piece, because you don't know it'.
'But now I am here, I might as well sing'
Unfortunately you can't sing this piece, because you don't know it'.
Than I will just stay here in the choir loft, and maybe hum along'.
'No'.

Many non-singers imagine that singing comes naturally to everyone, so that it doesn't require study and practice. We're used to hearing such misunderstandings.

Even some people in choirs have the same misconception.

Gavin, allow me to re-characterize "my" method, as I do have such men in my ensemble, one of whom did leave the schola program and came back to ensemble at my invitation after an interval of a couple of years.
I consciously practice rehabilitation for our singers "with issues," I am direct with them, sometimes individually, sometimes sectionally. But as many have observed, ego is driving their bus, and that is incompatible with discipline, in any arena of endeavor. So, if a situation doesn't improve over large spans of time, I then switch to "social Darwinism" as a tactic. I employed that with the gentleman mentioned above, who at some point of culmination, swore he would follow directions and do his best to integrate into the schola ethos. Within one minute of rejoining the schola rehearsal after that commitment, he willfully violated his word and started bellowing (the melody, btw) without listening to his section confreres. I halted the rehearsal and simple said, "(Mortimer), you just did what you said you weren't going to do anymore." He got up, put his folder on the chair and left of his own volition. Survival of the fittest.
That is not a "scorched earth" method. It is leading someone towards corporate achievement, and not indulging in tolerance of "I'm gonna sing the way I wanna because I'm a-singin' FOR GOD!" I've been doing this for a while, Gavin, and in the 23 years of my current tenure, still have a number of original (auditioned) schola members who signed on 23 years ago and we get new blood because of that consistency now and then.
It would be nice, nice....to not caricature fellow directors as "blue meanies" over a minute portion of information offered in charity.
And, btw, my "problem" singer still kills my eardrums every Sunday, I still try to work with him in and out of rehearsal and during performance, and I have no intention of dismissing him. And in truth, I've never, ever truly dismissed a soul from a choir in 45 years. Social Darwinism.

Refer your guys to Ezekiel 33:10-11 and tell them it's curtains if they don't repent. You have to hold the line with them, or they won't respect you. I don't know the whole history, or whether the gentlemen's wives are enabling or indulging them, but you can't tolerate it even if it costs you the wives. Surely the wives don't enjoy these escapades any more than you do. If they do, you have worse problems -- I don't envy you this position. I have had to lay the verbal smackdown on the occasional diva wannabe, and I have made people sing impromptu solos to demonstrate that they were singing the wrong note(s), but I have never had anyone admit (even indirectly, as your men have) that he didn't care about the music.

Remember this: you are not responsible for other people's behavior. However, you ARE responsible for your group's presentation (because I don't want to write "performance") of the music for Mass. If the evil deeds of a few are degrading that product, you owe it to the rest of the group and to the church to put the "wicked man" out of the group. If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, etc. etc.

I will pray for you because you have a tough row to hoe, but you *can* turn it around. It's up to you as director. Just remember the wise words of Al Capone: You get a lot more with a kind word and a gun than you get with just a kind word.

That sounds like a great plan, Pocket!

I also appreciate this discussion, and hope you can provide an update in a few months. We're all making this up as we go along, so best to learn from each other.

I consciously practice rehabilitation for our singers "with issues," I am direct with them, sometimes individually, sometimes sectionally. But as many have observed, ego is driving their bus, and that is incompatible with discipline, in any arena of endeavor.

Yup. But I'm not as kind as you are; I simply ask the problems to leave. The rest actually appreciate it b/c they know what's going on and they don't want to be part of a trainwreck choir. Usually within 3-4 months the vacant chairs fill up again with people who want to be there and will do what's required.

I prefer "schmeissing." Has that Continental flair and a real punchy enunciation.

Es tut mir lied! leid!

Fixed. Nevertheless: Wie schade!

Maybe you mean Rausschmeißen or something . . . man hat mir den Sack gegeben also comes to me (They gave me the sack).

Dad29, you're absolutely right: bad singers (especially the deliberately obtuse ones) are a secret to NO ONE in the group. You're doing everyone a favor by "aesthetically cleansing" the choir when the situation warrants it. I do always refer them to Ezekiel, though: I take no pleasure in the death of the sin[g]er, but that he turn from his ways and live [to sing another day].

Hello again! Now that the Feast of Corpus Christi is done, I thought I'd share my experiences with my difficult choir members.

I did indeed add an extra rehearsal for chants. I explained that it was for those who had the time, ability, commitment, etc to learn the chants in the time available. I expected one of my troublemakers to decide that was too much extra effort and that he wouldn't come. But he came to nearly every extra practice and he was completely unprepared every time. Perhaps I did not explain it very well or perhaps I should have said before each piece we worked on, "If you haven't practiced this, please just listen." I don't know. But he kept trying to sing chants he didn't know. I got particularly aggravated the day before Pentecost when he tried to sing Veni Sancte Spiritus. I had a little rant. "We have to sing this tomorrow! Now is not the time to be figuring out how it goes! Don't waste our time..." He seemed suitably embarrassed. But then, right after that, when we began practicing the Lauda Sion, he started trying to sing it! Fortunately, before I had to smack him, he realized he didn't have a clue and stopped singing on his own. Phew!

My other troublemaker only came to one chant rehearsal, which surprised me a little. But now, he seems a little miffed that he doesn't get to sing the chants. Last night during rehearsal, he said something about the men being in the doghouse. I explained that I would love to have the men singing the chants. All they have to do is learn them and come to rehearsal. "But I don't have time..." *shrug*

I decided to try assigning the Propers to various small groups. It's much easier to get a group of 4 or 5 to sing together and enunciate the words properly than a group twice that size. I thought that if I assigned one of the Propers to the men that they would take up the challenge and practice it and come to rehearsal. But they didn't. So now, I've gone to a volunteer system. If anyone wants to sing the Propers, they have to be at rehearsal and volunteer. So far, we've only had ladies do that. I am not deliberately excluding the men.

Last night, only ladies sang the Propers and the Sequence. It went fine.

I'll be interested to see who comes to rehearsal tomorrow in order to volunteer for our next High Mass.