We use the psalm tones most of the time for the propers. They do okay with those. It's the sequences, ordinaries and other chants, like the Subvenite, Libera Me, Mandatum, etc., they can't do. They even managed to derail the Litany of the Saints this year.

Canadash, oh to have men that can read music!!! It must be wonderful!

We have an SSA hymn that we do and the ladies have requested we do more. And we will. We will also do more Ladies Only chants. The upcoming sequence for Corpus Christi might be a good candidate.

I'll consider taking more time with the men but I really need them to own up to their responsibilities. They are not incapable. They just don't bother. Of course, if I make them be in rehearsal longer than the ladies, they may decide they prefer to learn things at home while their wives are practicing...?

Sectionals are a good idea if I can manage the logistics (we're a small chapel) and get the ladies something to work on. I got tied up the other day and when I came a little late into the choir room, one of the ladies had taken it upon herself to help go over things with the other ladies. But since we practice before Mass, it might be difficult to get the men to come early because one of them is consistently late as it is.

Thanks for your input!

Two things - your should be making moves to have all your singers able to read music, I think. That is worth investing some ongoing time in.
Secondly, it sounds to me like these guys are bluffers, so without losing your peaceful, cheerful gentleness, call their bluff during rehearsal. Ask people to sing as individuals, or in small groups or two or three, correcting and teaching as you listen and direct. When these men sing, if they do not even have the tune, point that out. They have the music, (whether written or aural to have practised at home) so there is a reason they sing it wrong (which may be their lack of effort, or may be other, undisclosed or undiagnosed reasons they are concealing under their bluffing, possibly out of fear of being shamed). Let your choir be a safe place to make mistakes, and be a learner, and possibly they will not feel the need to bluff so much.
On the other hand, actions have consequences. If you don't know the music ( for whatever reason - missing through illness, not bothering to learn it etc etc) you do not sing that piece. Without being nasty, make sure everyone is clear what your minimum threshold of competence is, and that the result of not reaching that threshold is that you don't sing. Do not put this is vague terms - 'please, if you don't feel confident singing this, please sit it out' rather, in rehearsal - 'Thanks John, for working on that, but as you don't have that tune yet, please don't sing that piece during Mass'. Write it down. When the choir stands to sing that piece, if bluffer John stands to sing, tell him quietly to sit. And wait till he does before you start.
As a director :
Practise continuous assessment of the level of competence in your choir. what is the minimum someone has to do to be allowed sing at all? (i.e. sing a melody line in tune, or is it more than that?) While a professional or auditioning choir might have a baseline of high skill which all fit into, most volunteer choirs will have mixed abilities - and changing abilities/ Younger singers will be growing in competence, confidence and range, others might be losing range, mental acuity etc. There is never a static picture.

Secondly, establish the principle - everyone practises and makes progress in sight singing. This can be a fun , competitive game at the beginning of choir. I have fond with males of all ages, turning it into a competition can make them try their best. (keep it light and fun - a hundred points for the person who can decipher and sing these for bars -etc etc)

Thirdly - establish the principle, not everyone sings everything. More industrious and competent singers have an opportunity to do more advanced music. Rather than split into two groups (the ones who bother and the ones who don't) split into several groups - a,b,c learning a new motet, d,e,f learning a new harmony for a regular hymn, g,h,I, learning material others in the choir know but they have not mastered (they might be newbies, or just need a slower track).

Arrange your repertoire with the type of choir you have in mind, with something which includes all those whose level of competence you wish to include. By which I mean, a professional auditioning choir might have a repertoire of only difficult pieces, and if you can't do it, then the music stays and the singer goes. For a mixed ability choir, there should be a range of pieces, the simplest of which are manageable by the least competent or newest members. The more complex pieces are simply sung by less members. For those who want the whole choir singing more complex material, point out that the choir is responsible for fostering learning, and secondly, the whole choir should be trying to recruit new members.

Lastly, to raise the whole level of music, consider doing pieces seasonally, rather than trying to learn too much new music every week. That way you can work on polishing finer details, rather than just singing the tune. You can provide a range a possibilities - barely competent singers who sing the seasonal regulars only, to highly competent singers who can work on complex pieces at greater speed, and a range in between.

Finally decide if it is choir policy to ask people to leave. What is the minimum behaviour necessary for membership? This is obvious is some areas - for example if someone was cursing and shouting at you week after week, you would discover there was a mandatory minimum requirement of politeness fairly fast.
What is your mandatory minimum in terms of ability? practise attendance? effort? (be careful in assessing this = someone who is less able and makes effort, may prefer to appear as someone who is more able but can't be bothered to make an effort).

You say the men can do certain things (strophic hymns) and you don't want to lose them. Fine. Hymns remain a permanent part of your repertoire. They may never sing anything else. Fine. Once it is normal for you to say at the beginning of a piece - Janet Mary and Alice only singing the motet they have practised. Now everyone please. Now the 6 women who are singing this sequence etc etc, it will be easy to confine them to their competencies. I would make it an unbreakable rule, that people who sing along to a piece they are not called for, are doing something rude and unhelpful, and will ultimately be asked to leave.

Praying for you, as it sounds like you have great ability and a big heart!

I'll consider taking more time with the men but I really need them to own up to their responsibilities. They are not incapable. They just don't bother.

Just keep asking and but have your expectations low. Chances are that they will never bother.... You may be surprised if they ever do.... but at least you won't be disappointed when they don't.

Maybe they would benefit from more reruns and less new material.

and

consider doing pieces seasonally, rather than trying to learn too much new music every week.

In your situation, I would have core pieces which include mens' parts. I would vary the womens' music more. This year at the Triduum I repeated, almost exactly, what we sang last year. I did have new music planned, but due to illness and lack of commitment I had to let it go. I was more calm, knew it would be beautiful and no one in the congregation was the wiser.

Two things - your should be making moves to have all your singers able to read music, I think. That is worth investing some ongoing time in.

I've been trying to teach them solfege and intervals so that I can give them some clues as to how to it goes. "Your next note is a perfect 5th above - "Twinkle, twinkle". I even play a "Name That Tune" game where I point to the solfege syllables and make them sing it and figure out what the song is. Unfortunately, I have not been very consistent with the solfege training because we are often operating under "emergency" conditions. Now that Holy Week is over, I plan to resume.

Do not put this is vague terms - 'please, if you don't feel confident singing this, please sit it out' rather, in rehearsal - 'Thanks John, for working on that, but as you don't have that tune yet, please don't sing that piece during Mass'.

Yes, I have been too subtle and that definitely isn't working. Somebody recently told me that not everyone can take a hint. I was too concerned about embarrassing people and I've let them get away with it for too long. Time to change.

Thanks for your input!

I wish I had your guts Ben... When my difficult singers go on holiday, our whole group sounds better! But I'm a chicken!

So, Father needed an extra server or two during Holy Week. I offered him the one difficult singer who can serve Mass. "Are you sure you don't need him?" "Oh, don't you worry, Father. We'll manage." Unfortunately, Father only needed him for Holy Thursday and Good Friday.

Fantastic advice above, especially Bonnie's. Definitely set and enforce clear criteria - Not because of your own ego, but because you're in service to the Church.

And please make clear your distinction between "the men" as a group and these two. Each person is making their own decision. Don't penalize others, that can be demoralizing to everyone.

Not because of your own ego, but because you're in service to the Church.

Yes, of course. I tell the choir all the time that we are not there to entertain. We are not singing to the congregation. We are singing to God and carrying on the glorious traditions of the Church. I also tell them that we are not perfect and there will be mistakes, but that God understands. Of course, that's presuming they bothered to learn the music in the first place!!!!

And please make clear your distinction between "the men" as a group and these two. Each person is making their own decision. Don't penalize others, that can be demoralizing to everyone.

Yes, I see your point, but in my case, none of the men are learning the music. The third man has Alzheimers and he gets a pass especially since he has the presence of mind not to sing when he doesn't know the music. And on the day I said, "Ladies only", he wasn't there, just the 2 slackers.

Rehearse the men separately.

Praise the heck out of them when they get it right.

Praise the heck out of them in front of the women when they get it right.

One of these men has a beautiful, strong baritone voice. And when we sing hymns in parts, he gets a lot of compliments from the congregation. He does fine on the hymns

These guys like the compliments they get, but are usually embarrassed because they do not read music and cannot sing as well on new music.

But they are counting on you to make them sing better.

Praise the heck out of them when they get it right.

I do that. I'm afraid, though, that there's been too much praise for too little effort. Why work when the congregation fawns all over you when you don't? The congregation, for the most part, can't tell if we've gotten the chant right or not. But they can tell when the hymns go well. I don't see any embarrassment at all.

Unheard of, absurd.

What was I thinking!?!?

I am not surprised that the men of the choir had difficulty getting the Easter Sequence right. After all, its melody changes every two verses.

Ha ha! That's the way sequences work! But Easter is only 8 verses. Corpus Christi is 24! Seems hopeless.

Yes, we rehearse before Mass on Sunday.

none seriously expects practice outside scheduled rehearsal time.

If someone can learn the chant during the scheduled rehearsals, I don't care if they practice at home or not. But currently, the men have proven unable to learn it in once-a-week practices. This stuff is not easy.

And what we do is not up to me. When Father says, "We'll have a High Mass for Corpus Christi," we have to learn the 24 verse sequence. I have several choir members that are up to the task. And we're going to do it even if some of the choir will have to sit it out.

Pocketharpy,

Are we correct in thinking that you are singing for EF Mass, that you don't consider the "Ecce panis" option? For sequences there's always alternatim singing: let the men be responsible for as much as they show themselves able to handle:
Men: "Veni Sancte"
all: "Veni Pater"
Mezzos: "Consolator"
women: "In labore"
Sopr 1: "O lux"
Sopr 1+2: "Sine"
Altos: "Lava"
women: "Flecte"
men: "Da tuis"
all: "Da virtutis"

We do alternate during the Kyrie but after three and a half years of singing it (Mass VIII, de Angelis) they're still struggling.

It seems that practicing at home is not really the problem...

I have a couple of men like yours. Lets face it, my choir would be better off without them, but I don't have the heart to ask them to leave. Also, I have enough men who are good that it doesn't matter that much. You may be better off with a treble schola. Why don't you audition some treble boys? In a few years their voices will change and the will have had the training to be decent bass voices.

You have a serious problem. I'm not sure what it is, but it is serious.

Time for some focus exercises with the guys, I think.

Men are ALWAYS behind in the learning and performance curve when it comes to choral work. One would assume that they eventually get better and surpass the women.

Rarely, if ever, does this happen.

Anyone have a rational explanation?

Well, if the men are well trained, then the women do not surpass the men. Case in point, my choir. I'm really not trying to toot my own horn here, but my sons are well trained. They are string players, have amazing pitch and can read like the wind (better than I do). Generally speaking, it was the girls who took the piano lessons and the boys played road hockey (Canadian boys anyway). So, of course the ladies are the better readers. Now that my boys are singing the tenor/bass parts, my tenor/basses have become fantastic. I send them away and they learn on their own. Yesterday I sent them away to learn the "In Paradisuum" and they came back and knew it in ten minutes and didn't make a mistake when they sang it at Mass. All of that training has paid off, but few parents are willing to make the sacrifices (and yes, they are huge sacrifices) needed to make decent musicians out of their boys.

Everyone gets to play.
Nobody keeps score.
Rubbish.

He who sings WELL prays twice.
They are not singing well.
In fact they are singing poorly and interfering with the hearers to pray at all.
This is about Liturgy, public worship.
Reproducing music is like arithmetic, it is right or it is wrong.
It is not about self expression.
That can be fulfilled in the shower or solo commute car.

Managers put under-performers "on plan".

I say record a Rehearsal and a Mass.
Privately play recording and note timestamps and durations.
Contact the men to appear as a group at least thirty minutes before the next rehearsal.
Meet in a room or office that is not the rehearsal place.
Set a timer so you end the session before the rehearsal.
Tell them you have something they need to hear.
Play the excerpts without comment.
Then ask them to put on their thinking caps
and tell you what is the problem
and tell you how to solve the problem.
Four follow up sessions with prompt attendance should be able to fix some things.
Make your list doable and specify what constitutes success.

If necessary play the recording for the pastor
and let him know you intend to chop the men.

How likely is it to get better men if they have to join the existing men?

if the men are well trained, then the women do not surpass the men.

I know a choir that has the most wonderful, young male singers. They all went to the same traditional Catholic school where choir is not an extracurricular elective. All students are required to learn to read music, sing the Mass, propers, etc. And they love it. That choir actually has the rare problem of having too few women!

Dissolve the choir and create a men's schola and a women's schola with the idea of alternating weeks. To begin though you will schedule the better prepared schola on each Sunday. The women's schola might sing 90% of Masses. The men will become competitive and strive to become better or recruit other men. Send them to find barber shop singers and recruit them. Even non Catholics. Then if the men become better the women will strive to become better. Per omnia...

Time for some focus exercises with the guys, I think.

Sounds like these guys couldn't survive long in a game of "Simon Sez".

I like the various ideas proposed above.

I know it's a lot easier said than done, but I wonder if the men's attitudes would change if you were able to recruit a couple of really, really good male singers. This isn't a realistic option most of the time, I know, but maybe look for a couple of non-Catholics who just really like to sing. One of the best men in my choir isn't Catholic, but he's retired and has plenty of time on his hands to sing with us. I notice that the other men in the group really step it up when he's there, probably because they're competitive and don't want to look like idiots. If the bar is raised and they realize that there are other singers who are a lot better than them, maybe things will change. But otherwise, it sounds like they both have really bad attitudes and I wouldn't waste too much time on them. My heart goes out to you...