it's in none of my up-to-date Catholic hymnals. And I asked myself: "Why not?"

(originally published anon, 1969)

There's your answer. No publisher is going to pay money to another publisher to include a song which is not part of that faith tradition's repertoire. Feste Burg? Sure, there's no copyright, and if you take a Burdizzo to the words, you can copyright that and make money.

I'm all for stealing everyone's good hymns, as long as they receive the same theological scrutiny as (*cough*) hymns already in the Catholic repertoire.

...which is not part of that faith tradition's repertoire

But that is my point.

If you ask my sister-in-law and myself which of our "faith traditions" is more valid, you'll probably get two answers. If you were to ask me (I can't speak for my sister-in-law here) whose baptism is more valid I'd probably have to look it up in some dusty old creed. I might start with the Nicene.

...stealing everyone's good hymns...

What I would like to see is sharing each other's good hymns. Not stealing anyone's.

...you can copyright that and make money...

Are we really reduced to that? I PRAY not. When El Greco painted his impression of the Protestant reformation, it was Christ Driving the Money-Changers out of the temple. You are suggesting they didn't stay out.

Not even remotely accurate.

Adam, I hope you are right!

@Chrism No, I don't believe El Greco's counter-reformation art depicted the "Church's attempt to purify itself." I believe that is the Protestant myth. I believe these paintings depict Christ purifying the Church. Look at Saint Peter (See Image Below). He has THE KEYS. Look at his paintings of St. Jerome. In El Greco's paintings, Jerome gave us the Bible. In Latin. If I'm wrong about this I guess I can always beat myself with a rock.



As in every age there are problems, caused by sin, within the Church. Which doesn't make it not the Church. Christ drove the money-changers out of the temple. He didn't say: "This temple is full of sinners, let's make our own, better temple."

But a discussion about El Greco here would probably detract from the original "why not" question I asked.

I mean, why don't our faith traditions share good hymns that would speak to all Christians today?

If it's money, that's a problem.

Instead of focusing on money, [Pope Francis] said, we should strive for justice, piety, faith and charity, as well as the gifts of patience and meekness which are the ways of the Lord. Pope Francis concluded with the wish that God will help each one of us to avoid falling into the trap of making money our idol.

I submit the "music divide" is caused more by mere oversight as both groups live in artificial bubbles.

If it's either of the above causes, it can (and should) be corrected.

'...if something's good, holy, true and beautiful, chances are it's also Catholic.'

My sentiments exactly. And not 'chances are' - it is. What contains no error is, ipso facto, Catholic. It is surprising, though, perhaps, it shouldn't be, how much Catholic thought has originated in persons and groups that are not Catholic. Truth is Truth, wherever it originates. One of the most profound treatises ever written on the Magnificat was penned by Martin Luther.

Wow, this thread stirred up a lot of topics, from art criticism to greedy for-profit Christian music publishers to Pope Francis criticism...

But CharlesW, you would certainly not be the first to accuse priests of detachment from reality.

Look at Leo XIII with Rerum Novarum.

Or Pius XI with Quadragesimo Anno.

Or even John Paul II with Centesimus annus.

But these were all written precisely because you may have a legitimate complaint, if you don't others certainly do.

If all Christians devoted themselves to being Christian these priests and Popes wouldn't be so detached from reality, no?

Our reality is twisted because Christians aren't Christian.

But it still doesn't really explain why "Our God Reigns" (How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him) isn't in our Catholic hymnals...

If all Christians devoted themselves to being Christian these priests and Popes wouldn't be so detached from reality, no?

Many priests have never done anything else. They haven't worked at secular jobs for income, They haven't supported themselves in years if ever, they have nothing in the way of business education, experience, or on-the-job training, and have little idea of what things actually cost. That is why they are detached from reality. Too many parishes find themselves in financial trouble because of that detachment from reality. There are exceptions, of course, but those exceptions are a minority.

But it still doesn't really explain why "Our God Reigns" (How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him) isn't in our Catholic hymnals...

I had never heard of this one so I looked it up on YouTube. It sounded nothing like what I would accept as serious, sacred music worthy of sacred liturgy - assuming that what I heard was the same hymn.

I have bad associations with "The Cry of the Poor." I remember an old hippie with twanging guitar wheezing it out over a microphone. It was pretty bad. I didn't get close enough to see if he smelled like patchouli. LOL. Still haven't heard "The Law of the Lord..."

So all we gotta do is get "The Cry of the Poor" into the Protestant hymnals, eh?

Some of the Protestants have too much taste to like that song, but others would embrace it. They usually have denominational committees that decide hymnal content and the final product is published by the denominational publishing house. In the Catholic Church, there is no denominational publisher, so no committee produced standard content, either.

they're an OCP "Heritage Mass" congregation - though more often now "Jubilation Mass" from GIA. That might have something to do with our being in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, and where Chepponis is now. But I am fond of both Mass settings.

Thanks!

Melo, do you sing Jernberg's Mass often? It's truly transcendent. Thank you so much for mentioning it the other day. Hope Mr. Jernberg keeps writing more things. We're learning his Salve Regina and hope to debut it Sunday. I saw on his website that he will be offering some new choral octavos soon.

So all we gotta do is get "The Cry of the Poor" into the Protestant hymnals, eh?

I work in a protestant church. Please don't.

And "The Law of the Lord" is NOT a universally protestant song. It's only in 4 hymnals. Most Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. would be unfamiliar with it. Rightly so, I should say.

@SeasonPsalt, much ecumenical consensus about hymn tunes and texts is built at the annual conferences of the Hymn Society of the United States and Canada. Each annual meeting has five hymn festivals, each festival containing an average of 20 hymns and psalms for congregational singing. Several representatives from most major publishers (Abindgon, Augsburg Fortress, Calvin Institute, Church Publishing, Inc., Concordia, GIA, Hope, Liturgical Press, Morningstar, OCP, Oxford, Selah, Wayne Leupold, Westminster John Knox Press, WLP) attend each year. Many of the participants each year serve on or have served on hymnal editorial committees.

The 2015 conference will be held at Loyola University, New Orleans, from the evening of Sunday, July 12, until noon on Thursday, July 16.

This thread has been a JOY to read! I'm so glad I started it.

I work in a protestant church. Please don't.

OK. Fear not, my friend! I honestly don't have that kind of pull.

"The Law of the Lord" is not in more hymnals because hymnal editors know that it is not good music.

I've GOT to get a copy of one of these hymnals that only have good music! That sounds AWESOME!

No, I wouldn't argue it's good music either. But I would say I really like it. I always liked Michael Praetorius better than Mozart, but I'd certainly be willing to admit Mozart wrote better music. And... shhh... I much prefer Carl Philipp Emanuel to his much more famous father. But in a music anthology I'd expect Wolfgang and Johann to be included well before my favs... because of familiarity.

...And your answer about the annual conferences of the Hymn Society of the United States and Canada truly does answer my question.

BTW- I finally remembered the second song I thought I should have found, when I used "Our God Reigns" as an example - I'm actually not really very fond of that song, and I also don't feel it would be appropriate for Liturgy. "As the Deer [Panteth for The Water]" was another song I browsed through my hymnals trying to find.

I included "The Cry Of The Poor" in this thread merely because my sister-in-law didn't recognize it. "Good" or not, I wan't even attempt to argue. But I really love that song, too.

That might have something to do with our being in the Diocese of Pittsburgh,

So, you will be at the Colloquium this year, right?

Great article, hitting the nail squarely on the head. My 2 cents worth.

But,... you know... I agree with Marty.

Our unity, when it comes, should be one of richness, and not reduction.

Reduction of what?

This is what I do for a living: I start, repair, and provide emergency service on large UPS (battery backup) systems. By large, I mean they could provide backup to a small city block for the time it takes for a generator to start. The server MusicaSacra is on depends on one, and if it is in a co-location facility they might even depend on one of mine. Depending on your bank I could remove your ability to use an ATM anywhere in the world for a period of time in about 1 second. If you are going through critical surgury, I could turn out your surgeon's lights in the same.

I used to love my job, I was always the guy on the white horse who saved the day if something went wrong. And actually I still love my job, but now quarterly profit projections and other artifially created requirements for stuff like: "How many revenue generating capacitor upgrades will you perform this month" have dampened my enthusiasm. And I've been doing this for a decade. At 4:00 AM this morning I was called to fix a broken fifteen-year-old unit that made an entire hospital's data center vulnerable to power outages. I still love this part of my job. But tomorrow at 8:00 AM my employer will ask me: "Why didn't you write a report and report your time yet? It's near the end of the month and we need to forecast labor costs." And I started at 4:00 AM, took 45 minutes "lunch" at 2:00 PM, and am just getting home.

But as I was thinking about this, I realized, in the light of what I've seen in this thread, that many of our Church musicians may suffer from similar issues. This is unacceptable.

Please, enjoy your music. Enjoy music! Liturgy is liturgy. And must be controlled, (I agree). But honestly, I enjoy music. Almost all music. All musicians should share the joy of enjoying music.

Is the hymnbook exclusively for the use of liturgy or sacramental practice? If so, we can save some paper and make them a lot thinner. Otherwise, why not include a few songs for sing-alongs? Though personally I'm sick of per diems. Musicians must not travel away from their families that much.

Is the hymnbook exclusively for the use of liturgy or sacramental practice? If so, we can save some paper and make them a lot thinner.

Yes they are and yes we could.


If people want to have sing-alongs, they are free to purchase a song book from any tradition. The Catholic Church (sort of) controls what goes into our pew racks, but they don't have any rules about what we keep on our book shelf.

And honestly, I don't know what this thread is about.

It was about something originally, but I don't remember, either.

But, seriously, Adam... we've got some pretty thick hymn books. They're not all really all hymns for use in liturgy, are they?

In England (and, to an extant, in the Episcopalian 1940 Hymnal), a hymnal was once considered a sort of generalized songbook of the church. Thus, the English Hymnal and (more so) Hymns Ancient and Modern (and I think the New English Hymnal) contain many songs that are really for use in schools and classrooms, not sacred liturgy.

Some of the older English-language Catholic hymnals also have specifically non-liturgical songs and hymns in them.

Interestingly, these still contain fewer pieces of music than many modern hymnals.

From what I can Gather, modern hymnals are generally thought of as specifically for Worship --- that is, some form of liturgical or para-liturgical celebration. They are stuffed full of material because they seek to be Comprehensive --- to provide so much music that everything anybody needs will be in there and no one will have a reason to buy some other hymnal.

Some of the songs are clearly for a specific type of devotional --- such as the 14-verse version of "Were You There" that only makes any sense at a Stations of the Cross. But it is not my understanding that publishers put music into their hymnals that they think is inappropriate for liturgy but which they hope gets sung at some other time.

Rather, many people on this forum (including me) would say that there is actually a problem with hymnals containing lots of stuff that truly isn't appropriate for liturgy, but which the publishers think is actually appropriate.

Very few people here would be sympathetic to the notion that mainstream Catholic hymnals would be improved by the inclusion of more Protestant Praise Songs. This is maybe not a universally held opinion though. --- I can think of probably 5 to 10 Protestant Praise songs that I think have as much right to be in a Catholic hymnal as music from Taize and Iona.

Which brings up an interesting point, since Taize and Iona are both Protestant, and both get fair representation in mainstream Catholic hymnals. As do a number of contemporary hymns and songs from Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian/Anglican, and Methodist composers --- all mainline liberal Protestants.

What you don't get a lot of in mainstream Catholic hymnals is music from the Evangelical Protestants, especially recent music from them. This is has two causes, I think: the genre of the music (Catholics don't do praise and worship music unless they have some specific excuse like Lifeteen or Campus Ministry), and the theological preferences of the people involved (Conservative Catholics and Conservative Protestants are not nearly as similar to each other as Liberal Catholics and Liberal Protestants are).

Our separated Protestant brethren would not be better off having "The Cry Of The Poor" in their hymnals. The refrain is rather drab with its long sustained and repeated notes. I'd rather see us give them something more appealing musically.

The long syllables ("The Lo-----------------------rd he---------------ars") could be made into more of a melodic gesture. It doesn't have to be a full-blown melisma, but . . . something. And perhaps change the text-setting so that the emphasized notes ("Lord"/"hears"/"cry"/"poor") provide some interest. As it stands, that little pattern (me,re,re,do) is itself kind of, well, impoverished and pained -- and that in a psalm that is supposed to be presenting a good-news message about salvation coming from God!

It's a downer, man.

I gave up singing hymns for lent. It's the sound of silence.