Hypothetical Response
  • Anybody ever thought about this: Pastor bans Latin, so you have the choir sing motets that would have been in Latin, all on a neutral syllable. Same great music, and no Latin. Yes, something would be missing from the performance, but at least everybody's happy, right...?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    With how bad the diction of most choirs, I don't think it matters whether the text is Latin, English, or neutral syllables.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CharlesW
  • clergetKubisz,

    I'm going to go out on a limb here: your pastor doesn't object to Latin - as a language - but to the entire ethos represented by it.
  • CGZ, you're entirely correct. I can't definitively prove it, but that's my suspicion as well.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    So, it's not a hypothetical concern?
  • No, he has actually banned Latin administratively. I'm not permitted to do anything in Latin, even for the choir. He also has specifically asked for no songs with Latin titles, even if it is sung in English; I can't actually accommodate this one, since there are several in the hymnal that the congregation knows and sings well that have Latin titles, but can be sung in English (they sing them equally well in Latin).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    With as much surgical precision I can muster-
    1. How was this ban made known and public to you?
    2. Were you personally consulted prior to its implementation, or advised of it after in any direct, official manner?
    3. Were you advised prior or upon your hiring, or during your tenure, of the protocol structures for who has domain over routine repertoire choices?
    4. Was this recent action the latest of any series of impositions that have surfaced during your tenure?
    5. Are you under the impression that any effort to collaborate over such decision making risks posing a threat to your tenure and position?
    6. Has this ban been subjected to scrutiny such as whether the singing of a chanted "Ubi Caritas" is banned, but contemporary settings by Hurd or Rosania are acceptable because of the mix of Latin/English/Spanish etc.?

    I don't think your hypothetical solution, albeit in purple, is at all viable. You can turn GPdP's "Sicut cervus" into a new age "ooh" massage, but that contravenes all that sacred music is intended to serve, the perfect union of sung art with perfect text.
    Under his "logic," as the Judge Roy Bean of his parish and its liturgies, you could have a string quartet come in on Good Friday and play Barber's Adagio, but your choir could not sing the "Agnus Dei" version on Easter Sunday. That's playing fast and loose with major league Church rules.
    We need more context. But this gentleman sounds like an overcooked ham.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    You could try doing a motet/anthem in English by William Byrd and see if he objects - that will let you know whether or not he simply objects to the language or to the tradition that that language represents.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • Personally, I don't work for fools. OTOH, I don't have to feed a family through my music.

    Many of the Choral Masterworks have been printed with English texts, many of them suitably Protestant. If you're in a situation where you have to do what the boss says, then you do what the boss says. Clearly the boss's intent is not to have vocalises or settings of your local phone directory. So set your polyphony to something edifying (find Finale files on cpdl and replace the words). Do Palestrina's setting of "All are welcome" or passages from the Book of Jude, and give them English titles. And, presuming you pick the hymns (and why would you not?), don't pick the Latin-titled ones, not matter how much the congregation loves them. If they ask, "Why don't we sing "x" any more?" ,tell them. If this is about ethos rather than language, make the pastor own up to it.

    Meanwhile, circulate your resume, because some place in this process you are either going to get canned, or won't be able to stand it anymore.
    Thanked by 1Felipe Gasper
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    What's most important is not that there be music in Latin, but that the music of the Mass be beautiful. So sing the most beautiful music in English that your choir can perform.

  • So sing in English as requested. Though I would be tempted to sing Psalm 136(137) Super flumina Babylonis . every. day.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Palestrina's setting of "All are welcome"


    ?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    "Venient omnes"? something like that?
  • I second Jeffrey’s motion. It sounds like you probably care too much about sacred music in your parish to be able to work productively with this priest.

    Now, your priest may well have a good reason for this. For all you know, his bishop may have told him to do this directly, and he’s just “covering” for his boss. Or, there may be a financial situation with a donor. There could be a multitude of just causes.

    Even if we posit that this is a faux pas on his part, misjudgement doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a bad priest per se. But it sounds like you and he have different priorities, and that’s not unlikely to end badly. (I speak from experience, my friend.)
  • Melo, it's great to have your wisdom on this discussion. I will answer you point-by-point to the best of my ability:

    1. It was made known to me by email, after sending out the music preparations for the month (a number of months ago, so this isn't really new to me, I've just been thinking on the whole situation recently).

    2. I was not consulted.

    3. It was my understanding at my hiring that I had such control over routine repertoire choices, especially for the choir as I am the choirmaster for the parish, as it were. I have never been advised, nor consulted in regards to, nor mandated that such repertoire choices were to be in the control of another person.

    4. This was one of the first impositions that occurred during my tenure. Another, more recent one has come up: I am not to to any music teaching before Mass without the Pastor's permission. This was made known to me in a face to face meeting regarding music, apparently in response to complaints. Again, I was not consulted nor was my input requested in any other way: it was mandated administratively.

    5. Yes, I am very much of the impression that any effort to collaborate or advise the Pastor on such matters risks a very imminent and dangerous threat to my employment. He has not made this explicitly clear to me, but from his previous actions and the fact that most of these impositions are administratively mandated, it is clear to me that he believes them to be non-negotiable.

    6. Yes, that scrutiny has been applied, but not for the reasons you listed. The Hurd version of Ubi Caritas is the only Latin permitted, because the congregation sings that hymn well, and it's not completely in Latin. What's more confusing is this: O Sanctissima is prohibited, even when sung in English because of the "ora pro nobis" at the end (I specifically asked him about this song when he reiterated that he wanted no Latin hymns, even Latin titled hymns), but Ubi Caritas is not, even though the refrain is in Latin. The congregation sings both songs equally well.

    As to the hypothetical solution: I am completely aware of the absurdity of doing such a thing in reality. It would not work at all, but was a fun thought I had while thinking on recent developments at the parish.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Adam: whatever work of Palestrina that one could shoehorn the words of "All are welcome" into. Or whose-ever.I think they might go well into the Robert White Lamentations, myself.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, that scrutiny has been applied, but not for the reasons you listed. The Hurd version of Ubi Caritas is the only Latin permitted, because the congregation sings that hymn well, and it's not completely in Latin. What's more confusing is this: O Sanctissima is prohibited, even when sung in English because of the "ora pro nobis" at the end (I specifically asked him about this song when he reiterated that he wanted no Latin hymns, even Latin titled hymns), but Ubi Caritas is not, even though the refrain is in Latin. The congregation sings both songs equally well.

    Well, this alone dispenses with Felipe's presumption of a reasonable, charitable rationale at the heart of the matter. It is an ethical misstep, of ridiculous magnitude.
    Pragmatically, I agree with those advising you to seriously consider any opportunity to relocate, if its ramifications to your family aren't onerous, and I rarely advise "dusting the sandals" as a remedy. And this is a ailment that cries out to heaven and Ecclesia Dei for redress, as one way or another, I doubt the bishop will show interest in undercutting one of his pastors.
    In the meanwhile, seek out (WLP) all the Fr. Eugene Lindusky English Motets and stuff akin to that and fight that good fight. I'm not sorry, but a healthy choir is the backbone of healthy and hardy singing of sacred song at worship.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Melo, we obtained permission to put volume 1 of the motets arranged with English translation by Lindusky on-line, so these may be useful to Clerget:
    http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/lindusky-motets1.pdf

    Other volumes in the series may still be available from WLP.

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Suh-weet, Richard. Heck, I'll be going to that vault!
    Congrats on matriculation, no better man deserved it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Matriculate? I grad-jee-ated! Thank you.
  • For all you know, his bishop may have told him to do this directly, and he’s just “covering” for his boss. Or, there may be a financial situation with a donor. There could be a multitude of just causes.


    I think that more often than not this is the case. He might not personally like Latin, but it seems like a pretty extreme set of rules for him to come up with on his own.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    there may be a financial situation with a donor.

    I really don't think that not wanting a good source of money to dry up is a 'just cause' -- if money is his priority, then he's also probably the kind of priest who won't preach sound doctrine on certain issues because another donor might object to a particular teaching and he doesn't want to loose that well of cash. YMMV
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    if money is his priority, then he's also probably the kind of priest who won't preach sound doctrine on certain issues because another donor might object to a particular teaching and he doesn't want to loose that well of cash. YMMV


    BINGO!!! It happens every day.
  • Clerget, the Latin ban was imposed on me as music director several years ago, at the beginning of the choir season. We sang 1-2 pieces of the sacred liturgy in Latin at the time. The reason given for the ban was that a small group of parishioners (who happened to be boomers, active, and steady donors) had complained.

    I made the case for Latin inclusion in the Latin church (face palm)... fought the good fight that Melo describes and waited ten long months to see if there would be a softening. Nope. I made the decision to leave, did so on good terms, and about five months later a much better position was offered to me, out of the blue.
    I'd say give the people at the parish (incl your pastor) your best and keep looking. Chances are, something better is out there for you.

    I commiserate most deeply and will pray for you. Seriously. The ban and the way it was imposed was a great burden for me, so I have added reason to remember your situation.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    What about Greek? Are you allowed to sing a Kyrie, for example? Or does the ban cover anything that's not vernacular?

  • Yes, for some reason, Kyrie is permitted, but only six fold (because it's part of the contemporary style Mass setting we sing).
  • Just out of curiosity, does your parish ever sing anything in Spanish? I'm just wondering if the ban is intended to single out Latin or if it's intended to make everything English-only.
  • We have exactly one Spanish-speaking family in our parish, and of the three members of the family, only two ever come to Mass (dad doesn't show up regularly), and both mom and son speak fluent English. We don't do anything in Spanish. The rest of the parish is standard, Midwestern folk of mostly German and English descent, except a few Polish families (including the DM, whose wife is of German descent ;-))
  • I certainly sympathize with you. We had this happen to us in 1987 at a parish where Latin masses had never been abolished after Vatican II ( we sang the new mass but in Latin). One of the clergy formerly at that parish persuaded his new pastor to invite the Latin mass to his parish (including celebrant, choir, and people), and we have been there ever since. For a while we alternated novus ordo and Tridentine rites, which was difficult for the choir, but eventually the people made known their preference for the old rite, which is what we do now. I wonder if there is another church where they would welcome you. That is truly a difficult situation but I hope you can find another home.
  • Yeah, me too. I had a meeting with Fr today about Holy Week and Easter, and I had the opportunity to ask him some questions, such as "is the purpose of music at Mass only for the people to sing" and his reply was "what other purpose would there be?" Otherwise it was a productive meeting, but very much informed me of his position on music in the liturgy. I think he is underestimating our congregation: I think they can do much more than he believes. I think that a little instruction, even if only offered to those who want to be taught will go a very long way.