Old Church Music
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    I have an anthem Jubilate Deo by Alphonse J. Weiss arranged for 4 mens voices (T.T.B.B) by James A. Reilly (No. 403). It was published by McLaughlin & Reilly Co. copyright MCMXXIX (1929). My question is, when it comes to old music of this type how does one go about determining the copyright status? I have heard that anything over 75 years is public domain. Is this true?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    A lot can depend on what country you're in. It sounds like you are in the US, where the 75 years was the rule way back in the 20th Century. For a primer on US copyright and fair use, Stanford has a useful site.
    The piece in question might possibly be PD if the 1929 copyright wasn't renewed, so you could start a search of IMSLP's scans here.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • WGS
    Posts: 300
    McLaughlin & Reilly sold their stock and maybe their rights to the Summy Birchard (sp?) corporation which itself went out business, but at least for a while, there was still a Summy Birchard entity in Canada.

    This is obviously not an answer to your question, but just suggests how confusing the matter can be.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • Anything written before 1923 is PD in the United States. The laws have changed significantly throughout history, and it depends on when the work was written as to what laws apply to it. Please see the website below for further details.

    This website has good information: http://www.teachingcopyright.org/handout/public-domain-faq
    Thanked by 2irishtenor Don9of11
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Anything written before 1923 is PD in the United States.

    Except Happy Birthday.
  • Summy was bought by Warner which was bought by Alfred, though they still seem to have a crew per http://www.mpa.org/music-publisher/3415.

    There are a few places (internet archive is one IIRC) where you can search for copyright renewals. In this particular case, the copyright would have needed to be renewed in 1957. Given that it's an author totally unknown to me (and I've been playing with the unknowns of Catholic choir music for awhile now), chances are good that it was not renewed, because there was no money in it. There still isn't. If you were planning on making a commercial reprint, then you would need to have your legal ducks in a row. If the issue is copying it for your choir, I wouldn't bother.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • FWIW, Weiss doesn't come up on WorldCat at all, and Reilly doesn't come up in connection with a Jubilate. So you have a pretty unusual item here.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    Thanks everyone for your help and for providing some great links. I did a quick search using some of the resources given and I could not find any renewals. I come from a parish in the Cleveland Diocese that closed and our choir used to sing this piece years ago and I only have a photostat copy myself. I'm in a new parish and singing with the choir there. We have been slowly introducing Latin chant and some Latin hymns and before I submitted it to our music director I wanted to do some homework. Since it does not appear to be under copyright, I would say it's OK to share it. I will see if I can attach a PDF.
    -----------
    see below
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Adam

    Except that HPTY is one of the oddest of ducks: the erstwhile copyright holder bases claim in part on the change of words in 1924 (which is after 1922) and has gotten away with it by a commons problem (no one was, until 2013, willing to take on the expense of disputing the claim - now there's a class action to dispute it).
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Thanks, Liam: I've been following the ongoing saga. The claim is complete nonsense, and its amazing to me that the charade has gone on as long as it has.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,825
    I published an arrangement of Happy Birthday on Youtube years ago, and they haven't said a hoot.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxCroGndnxY
    And they have called me out on background music in one of my videos, so I know they do take action when anything is out of order. I suspect the whole copyright issue on HB is baloney.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    I wonder if Igor Stravinsky paid a licensing fee to use the tune.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJAEepA0nPk
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen francis
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Marilyn Monroe may have paid a heavier fee for her rendition.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    I contact Alfred Music Co., who holds the copyrights of McLaughlin & Reilly music and this piece even though it is an out of print score is still under copyright. So I removed the PDF. Their rep was pretty nice about the whole thing as they didn't have a copy in their archives. So I sent them mine and they reciprocated by sending me a letter with permission to produce 20 copies.

    Yes, this would still be under copyright. Typically, anything prior to 1923 is now public domain so this would still be under copyright from 1929). ~ Troy Schreck - Contract and Licensing Administrator, Alfred Music
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    And as we know, publishers never make claims that exceed what they really own. :-)

    A work published in 1929 would need to have its copyright renewed in its 28th year, in 1956 or 1957. Can they confirm that the renewal was filed?
    Thanked by 2irishtenor CHGiffen
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    A work published in 1929 would need to have its copyright renewed in its 28th year, in 1956 or 1957. Can they confirm that the renewal was filed?


    I didn't know to ask him that but even if I had how would I verify it?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    While originally copyright in 1929, the copyright for Jubilate Deo by Alphonse J. Weiss is not recorded as having been renewed in 1957 in either of the two volumes of the U.S. Catalogue of Copyright Entries 1957 Music (which includes copyright renewals). Therefore, it is safe to assume the work is now Public Domain.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    A work published in 1929 would need to have its copyright renewed in its 28th year, in 1956 or 1957. Can they confirm that the renewal was filed?
    Fixed. Also, "they" are under no legal obligation confirm that the renewal was filed, unless "they" institute legal proceedings for copyright infringement. However, anyone can check the U.S. Copyright Entries and Renewals (not a fun thing at all, especially the first time or two you try to verify a copyright renewal registration). That is exactly what I did before making my previous post, just above this.
    Thanked by 1Don9of11
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Charles, do you know if there is a how-to page about that subject anywhere on-line?
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    Is the 28 year interval the maximum? Could it have been renewed much earlier or are copyright's good for 28 year period? I'm just asking 'cause I don't know.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    The top level page for U.S. copyright searches is U.S. Copyright – Search Copyright Records.

    Records are online for copyright registrations since January 1, 1978, with links in the left "Online Records" pane on the webpage for: (a) information About the Catalog and (b) a link to Search the Catalog.

    Information for finding records prior to January 1, 1978 is on the right "Other Services" pane on the webpage, including: (a) a brochure on how to Find find records prior to January 1, 1978; (b) a link to Search the Catalog of Copyright Entries; and (c) a Tutorial for the CCE.

    Because of the somewhat different way things were recorded (in books) prior to 1978 nearly all of which (especially for music) have been scanned and made available online, it takes some work, but (after trial and error), I find that it is best for me to follow the link for All items (most recently added first) – and from this page plow through the 14 pages of links-with-description until I find the year and subject I'm looking for, typically appearing as something like "Catalog of Copyright Entries, 1929 Music For the Year 1929 New Series..." (currently found on p.5 of the list of links), or "Catalog of Copyright Entries 1957 Music Jan-June..." and "Catalog of Copyright Entries 1957 Music July-Dec..." (both currently found on p.9 of the list of links). In these last two books, the copyright renewals for the periods are in a separate section, so you have to consult the tables of contents. In some years, copyright renewals are in separate volumes.

    [Added note: Richard Mix provides a link, reproduced here, for Catalog of Copyright Entries – Music at IMSLP that saves the necessity of searching through the 14 pages of links at the U.S. Copyright archive.]

    As far as I know, the copyright renewals were (quite logically) only recorded for the year of their effective date, which is 28 years after the original copyright. In fact, I strongly suspect that it was not possible to renew a copyright prior to the 28th year after the original. As an analogy: my driver's license is issued for 10 years, but I am not allowed to renew it after, say, 8 or 9 years since it was issued. You can imagine why.

    This information about and my experience with the CCE have come through my rôle as president of CPDL, manager of its ChoralWiki website, and a member of its Copyright Issues workgroup. At CPDL, we take copyright issues very seriously.
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 708
    Thanks for providing the links and your insight. I went back through some of my music where I had seen copyright renewals and they were in fact renewed at the 28 year interval. On some I see International Copyright Secured, is this something to be concerned about?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    There is no such thing as "International Copyright" because copyright is granted (secured) nationally. International agreements may effect fair use and licensing. But when copyright laws change in the EU and CA, the changes are retroactive. Thus, since there is no current need to secure international copyright for U.S. publications, this phrase "International Copyright Secured" is essentially meaningless.

    IF the copyright statement says "International Copyright Secured", then you are able to make use of any per-copy license arrangements from your source, if provided, and that you can pay for copyright print (per copy) licenses in any country.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I have seen some old publications which read "British Copyright Secured" or "French Copyright Secured", etc. My guess is that eventually publishers simply went to a blanket "International Copyright Secured" for all publications whether the record is actually in England, Germany, or Timbuktu.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Those old "----- Copyright Secured" statements once had meaning, mostly that the copyright had been duly registered in the country of origin. But current international agreements, together with the fact that a work is copyright once it is created, with or without a copyright statement attached thereto, have rendered them essentially void. "International Copyright Secured" was not a "blanket" change by publishers, but refers to registration in one country (or more) with inter-country licensing provisions as I described above.