Glory to God from the Mass of God the Father
  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    [insert New Year's greeting in language of your choosing, including Morse code, semaphore, WingDings, etc.]

    Wrote a setting of the Mass in English using essentially the Catholic version of the BCP.

    This is a very "cathedral" setting of the work. It has a lot of pomp and fanfare and some divisi. The 8va behind some notes is intended to be the organ stop that lowers the pedal an octave lower. I can't implement organ stops with Finale.

    It would be nice to have strong tenors for this piece because there's at least two times where they're the root of the chord.

    Have fun with this piece, and again [insert New Year's greeting in language of your choosing]
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen ZacPB189
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    using essentially the Catholic version of the BCP.

    It is unclear from this wording what status the text used in this setting possesses. When one celebrates the 1970 Order of Mass in English or another vernacular translation, or the 1970 or 1962 Ordo Missae in Latin, or a particular usage of the Order of Mass in the Roman Rite, such as that approved for former Episcopalians and Anglicans, the texts to be used have been specified and approved by the Church. One is not authorized to create a new text or even to give an approved text a few editorial "tweaks." There is no such thing as "essentially" using an approved text. One either does or doesn't.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • Have mercy on those who criticize.

    He never said or implied that this was to be sung at Mass. He was clear to state that he:

    Wrote a setting of the Mass in English using essentially the Catholic version of the BCP.


    Essentially a Catholic version of the BCP.

    He did not say to approach this work as a glorious setting of the Mass that should replace all others and be esteemed for centuries. Instead, he said, "Have fun with this piece."

    And there are those that serve in Anglican, Episcopal, Methodist and other services (either because of faith conviction or to make a lot of money for playing one service a Sunday instead of playing 5 Masses a Sunday, those people may have fun with it and sing it.

    It's not a sin to change the words of the Glory to God. Is it?

    "Have fun with this piece." It's a new year. Think positively.

    As far as criticism of this piece. There are things I like, things I do not like, but at least someone is trying!

    [as far as referring to it as a Mass...didn't Bernstein do something along the same line?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    Welcome, vansensei! And thanks to Noel and Fr. K for the ideas of how the piece might be useful.
    --admin
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Folks don't post their compositions on this MusicaSacra Forum for them to be used at garden parties. They're usually suggesting that something they wrote might be useful to some Forum reader(s) in the liturgy. If not that, then perhaps in a concert setting.

    Well and good. But, if proposed for liturgical use, whose liturgy? If it is, in fact, no one's liturgy then the purpose for the posting and the soliciting of comments is at least questionable. Accordingly, I questioned.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Gavin
  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    What I mean by "Catholic version of the BCP" is about the Ordinariate, Chair of St Peter. It's known as the Book of Divine Worship.

    And I do intend for this to be used in a Mass someday. It is definitely for liturgical use. I would be enjoyed beyond belief if people used my music in liturgy because I write music to glorify God.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Carlos, I share with you that I contacted the site webmaster to see if perhaps he could avail you of the exegencies of posting one's compositions here when one is both new to the forum and from "out of the blue." Commentary from others and yourself has since negated the possible retraction for your own review. I truly wish you'd introduced yourself in some other manner so that we all could have benefited from more perspective. C'est la vie.
    I would, were I you, contact via the Private Message feature of this forum our colleague, CHGiffen, founder of the Choral Public Domain Library and an esteemed composer himself, and ask for some advice regarding a serious self-examination and review, and perhaps a private sharing of your work with trusted, honest colleagues prior to unveiling it at large here or elsewhere.
    That said....
    1. The assignation "With Pomp" seems antiquated if not pretentious in the 21st century.
    2. FINALE is easily manipulated so that such assignations, tempo markings, chord assignments, etc. do not overlay and obscure one another. This also needs to be recognized upon finalizing a pdf version of your score.
    3. Initially, whether for Roman or Ordinariate use, syllabic declamation (em-PHA-sis) is an immediate issue, even from the annuciatory phrase. But it's even more evident at WE praise Thee. As opposed to "we PRAISE Thee..." and so forth.
    4. I can't determine why the so-named Bmb5 (vii dim) with its amplified tri-tone is carried from "earth" straight over to "peace." Perhaps you can illuminate us?
    5. Which also leads to general problems of nomenclature of chords. In m4 you cannot be at ease with leaving the organ accompaniment showing a G# when the chord assignment requires the enharmonic Ab. It matters.
    6. Be consistent with articulations; if you use a slur in measure 7 over one syllable, also use it in the prior measure 6.
    7. No one here objects much to rubric bypasses of basic theory, but in my experience, in all genres, doubling the 3rd (in this case the C# in m.14) simply doesn't ever sound or feel "good."
    8. In m.15 the voice leading asked of the altos isn't as tenable as simple revoicing the change to the tenor/bass parts.
    9. Intevallic leaps in m.16 are somewhat inexplicable, similar to the issue with m15 alto leap.....

    I don't wish to belabor the analysis any further. Please don't stop honoring God with your inspiration. But please carefully consider all aspects of what you wish to share with your peers who've labored long in these fields.
    God's blessings to you this new year.
  • Well and good. But, if proposed for liturgical use, whose liturgy? If it is, in fact, no one's liturgy then the purpose for the posting and the soliciting of comments is at least questionable.


    It appears that this was covered in the initial posting:

    Wrote a setting of the Mass in English using essentially the Catholic version of the BCP.

    Is this just a place to post music for the Latin mass, for the NO Mass? I fail to find that written in the guidelines. Would it be out of place to sing this in a Catholic church? During a concert or prayer service?

    Are we restricted by church law to only sing music with text that has been approved? If so, how have OCP and other publisher's slid under the gate so many times?

    It is important for us to guide people into an understanding of what may be appropriate for liturgy...not just the Mass, but Liturgy. Treating them with the old "I'm the ________, and I brandish the ruler that slaps the knuckles" routine..?



  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    This text does differ slightly from the text in Rite One in the Book of Divine Worship (p. 285). The marked words from the BDW text are omitted in the score above:

    O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty
    [...]
    with the Holy Ghost, art most high in the glory of God the Father.


    Of course, the liturgical norms require that the approved text be used in full, so the omissions could be an obstacle. Probably our members with experience in Ordinariate congregations could confirm if that's the case.

    Vansensei, can you tell us if you've been able to perform the above setting in practice yet?
    Thanked by 2Gavin eft94530
  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    No, I haven't gotten any works of mine performed yet, partly due to being very busy with school.
    '
    I'll post a revision with the added words among some others, but with the latter, I think "art most high" isn't needed because "with the Holy Ghost in the glory of God the Father..." is "cum Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris..." in the original Latin.
  • I'll post a revision with the added words among some others, but with the latter, I think "art most high" isn't needed because "with the Holy Ghost in the glory of God the Father..." is "cum Sancto Spiritu in gloria Dei Patris..." in the original
    Latin


    This is where it gets touchy. What we think is not acceptable - the church has, in its infinite wisdom, decided what exactly are the words to be used at Mass. Also in its less than infinite wisdom, it has decided to take the Latin words and let experts around the world interpret the words in the local language.

    This would not be a problem and makes a lot of sense. It's one thing to read a translation of the music you are hearing sung, but yet another to have to fit a workable translation that is also singable.

    No one has succeeded in doing this in English in our lifetimes and, regrettably the Anglicans have succeeded but even they have fooled with it...

    If you are Catholic you've been inundated with at least two different mass translations and many, many poor translations and even worse, texts sung at mass that hardly being there...even secular music such as "Leaving' on a Jet Plane" after mass when a military chaplain left Berlin, Germany - a questionable practice...but even worse when it was the communion meditation the next week.

    On this forum you'll find a desire to be very "proper" when writing music for the liturgy. The words should be intact and rarely repeated. The music should make you think of church and not even hint of anything secular. But, like when I was driving in France recently and this road sign appearedimage with a few words underneath it, I was told to ignore it and keep on going...there are no guidelines yet for composers who post here, so we have no choice yet to keep on going.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Noel, while I think it truly admirable to remind us all that this forum remains a place for free expression and open mindedness, I must also point out that no one, no one- has made any effort to suppress Carlos' composition on his own terms from being considered on those terms in this forum.
    Admit it or not, all of us who take the risk of sharing text and/or music here, for the most part are aware of the "nature" and habituee's of posters and lurkers. In this instance, I admit I was not convinced Carlos was aware of predilections that would come into play with his debut here as such. The merit of his composition, as is of all others displayed here (and elsewhere) is ultimately self-evident. No one has presumed intent and dismissed his work out of hand in that it doesn't fit a particular schema, and I suspect your efforts to give it a fair hearing are absolutely noble for all our sakes.
    We don't have such signs posted here and new works shall likely remain always welcomed. But like an unmarked, four corner intersection, it is to anyone's benefit to look around those corners and know without a doubt whether it's safe to proceed to an intended destination. Carlos is a student, he's learning by his own admition. How best can we help him?
    Honestly, of course.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Melo,

    I thought that I was saying just what you said above, and was merely rambling on about why he didn't get a standard, "might be better if you were to stick to using the current approved text if you are writing this for the NO Mass" message.

    Instead he got the "Garden Parties" message.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    He may have written this for a specific application. I don't know. But the fact it deviates from the approved ICEL texts means it could not be used at mass - at least in my part of the woods.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    ... a setting of the Mass in English using essentially the Catholic version of the BCP.
    This would be the Book of Divine Worship of the Anglican Ordinariate, yes? Maybe the text wouldn't be acceptable for the Ordinary Form, but it could be appropriate amongst those of us attached to the Anglican Use/Ordinariate. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,966
    One cannot omit “art most high” because it is moved in the BCP from before the Holy Name to the ending phrase. Fidelity to the text is most important for an Ordinariate group. And yes, I know Haydn cut from the Credo... But anyways, I don’t know what an Anglican community would think, though I think the full text is the safest route for all venues, whether it be Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise.

    Also, as a reminder, the BDW is being replaced by the Ordinariate Missal. Texts for funerals, marriages, and occasional services are in use, along with the modified office in the Customary. The missal will be out soon (this year or next, no?). It will be changed from the BDW. Unless things changed, Mgr. Burnham said all Ordinariate services will be called “Divine Worship,” somewhat confusingly, so the term is not in general usage yet. I don’t know what texts of the Ordinary were revised from the BDW.

    Carry on!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I know Haydn cut from the Credo...

    Schubert, wasn't it?
    Thanked by 1vansensei
  • vansensei
    Posts: 215
    @Salieri, yes it was Schubert. I recently performed his Mass in G for my collegiate choir and I noticed that. Oddly enough, he cut out some major statements of faith in it, the profession of belief in the Four Marks of the Church being one of them.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,966
    Oh, yes… Thank you.