Extraordinary Form Wedding during Advent - "Gloria" allowed for recessional?
  • mpope
    Posts: 2
    A couple is getting married at my parish on a Saturday in Advent and want their ceremony in the Extraordinary Form. They have asked for no organ, so I am preparing a choir to sing everything a capella.

    Since the wedding is during Advent, I am well aware that we will not sing the Gloria during the Mass. However, the couple has requested a "Gloria" for their recessional. I have a choral solo we could do with the text "Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis." Are we allowed to do this? I am unsure of what to tell the bride and groom.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    This is why I'm getting out of the wedding biz. "I want....I want.....I want...."
    Perhaps you can steer them to a nice setting of the Gloria Patri instead. Do they want a Catholic wedding or not?
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The Nuptial Mass is a Votive Mass of a rank that always excludes both Gloria and Creed... Of course if the day is a Sunday or other Feast the Votive Mass would not be said, but the Mass of the Day with Nuptial Blessings etc. and Gloria / Creed appropriate for that day...

    http://archive.org/stream/ceremoniesofrom00fort#page/404/mode/2up

    EDIT. The above is the pre-1962 rubrics... My "1962" book that I checked had not been updated properly, (We usually follow the pre-1955 Calendar and Rubrics!)
  • AndrewK
    Posts: 41
    I would remind the couple that since they are getting married in Advent, which is a penitential season, that the inclusion of the Gloria at any part of the Mass would be inappropriate.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    What does "Ite missa est" mean? :-)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I have to think that anyone who is specifically requesting an EF Mass would also understand the issue of following the proper rules about what is and isn't appropriate.
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • AndrewK
    Posts: 41
    @JQ

    I see what you are saying, but that seems to go against the spirit of the liturgical season.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    What does "Ite missa est" mean? :-)


    Gentlemen, start your engines!
    Thanked by 2Ben Caleferink
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    Nah, I'm just lobbing the bomb and running. I'm just thankful that I have colleagues who are absolutely sure about what is possible.
    Thanked by 1AndrewK
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    Of course the Gloria in excelsis would be allowed as a votive recessional hymn in honor of the Triune God. What a wonderfully pious choice by the bride and groom!

    The Gloria has never been restricted by law to liturgical use and has been featured in concerts and paraphrased in hymns.

    There is nothing about the Gloria which is foreign to Advent in the EF. The Gloria is sung on most Saturdays in Advent, for example.

    I would caution only against mimicking rubrical gestures like having the priest sit, rather than exit.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Would it be allowed, in the strictest, lowest possible sense of the word? Probably. Should it be done? I certainly wouldn't.

    Adam Wood makes a good point... if they are getting married in the EF, I would think you could probably talk sense into them by just telling them that it would be discouraged, and encourage something similar.
  • mpope
    Posts: 2
    Thanks, everyone. I didn't feel like it should be done, even if, on a technicality, we could get away with it.

    We'll do something similar but appropriate for the season.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    The Nuptial Mass is a Votive Mass of a rank that always excludes both Gloria and Creed.

    That's out of date. According to the 1962 rubrics, which are used according to Summorum Pontificum, the wedding Mass is a votive of the 2nd class (permitted on all the Saturdays of Advent this year) and includes a Gloria.

    "343. The privileges of votive Masses of the 2nd class are:
    a) they are said Gloria, unless violet vestments are used; but without creed, unless it is said by reason of an occurring Sunday or octave;"

    Since the wedding is during Advent, I am well aware that we will not sing the Gloria during the Mass.

    I'm fairly certain that Advent as a "closed season" has been abolished by the 1983 Code of Canon Law not reiterating the prohibition on celebrating marriages during Advent. As such, the nuptial blessing can be given during Advent and therefore you should be using the Mass pro sponsi and the Gloria included.

    Even if you are using the Mass for the day, Dec. 6 and Dec. 13 are both feasts this year in the EF which include the Gloria.
    Thanked by 7CHGiffen Adam Wood Chrism tomjaw Cantus67 AndrewK MatthewRoth
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    It sometimes happens that people who actually do know the general parameters don't understand a specific application of them. Former Protestants who still have some Protestant music in their file cabinets run into this, for example.

    Jeff Morse reads a rule and concludes that English motets are allowed within the context of Mass. A now-deceased member of the schola with which I sing was adamant that the rule of Mass prohibited such stuff. These two people, to the best of my knowledge, never met each other. I won't second guess either one at this point.

    I find myself singing This is the record of John, but not at Mass. I used to sing Nolo mortem peccatoris, but I wouldn't recommend its use within Mass so as not to scandalize those who are sure that no vernacular work belongs inside the Mass. We often sing vernacular hymns during processions, in and out, but not inside the Mass.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Jeff Morse reads a rule and concludes that English motets are allowed within the context of Mass. A now-deceased member of the schola with which I sing was adamant that the rule of Mass prohibited such stuff. These two people, to the best of my knowledge, never met each other. I won't second guess either one at this point.

    I find myself singing This is the record of John, but not at Mass. I used to sing Nolo mortem peccatoris, but I wouldn't recommend its use within Mass so as not to scandalize those who are sure that no vernacular work belongs inside the Mass. We often sing vernacular hymns during processions, in and out, but not inside the Mass.


    If the Mass is sung, only Latin music is permitted. If the Mass is not sung, hymns and anthems in the vernacular may be used, provided that they are not translations of the ordinary or proper.

    Contradicting or confuting someone who is mistaken is not "giving scandal." Scandal is conduct that may reasonably lead people to think that a sinful act is permitted.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Jahaza, thanks for the correction... have edited the comment above.
    I also agree, it appears that the 1983 code has removed the closed seasons.
    Dec 6th ??? is your Cathedral / Patron St. Nicholas! I think you mean Dec 8th... Also I thought the 12th was the Feast of Our Lady...

    As for the comments above on the Gloria in Advent...
    My understanding that in the EF in Advent, the Gloria is omitted on days with Violet vestments, but would be used on other days... see LMS Ordo below,

    http://www.lms.org.uk/find-a-mass/liturgical-calendar-2013#Dec
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    Dec 6th ??? is your Cathedral / Patron St. Nicholas! I think you mean Dec 8th...

    Nope, the Saturdays of Advent this year are:

    Sat. Dec. 6, Feast of St Nicholas (3rd Class with commemoration of Feria)
    Sat. Dec. 13, Feast of St. Lucy (3rd Class with commemoration of Feria)
    Sat. Dec. 20, Ember Saturday of Advent (2nd Class)
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 208
    Jahaza is correct. That is in accordance with FSSP rules which also follow the 1962 rubrics (2nd release of 1962, there were actually 2 major changes that year). Interesting conversation though, I've been under the impression that processional and recessional are outside of the liturgical function (although very much part of the tradition {small 't'}) which means as long as they are appropriate, i.e. not vulgar nor popular, they can be in the vernacular or any other language. Although I can't remember the first time I read that.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    MPope,
    I would trust your instincts on this. It's an odd request, even if it springs from a love of the Bl. Trinity.
    A joyous choral Credo as a recessional would be similarly weird. It's not awful, just out of place. Even if it wasnt Advent.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Would the Te Deum be prayed after the Lauds of that morning? That would be an appropriate substitution.
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