Our response to "Rebuilt"?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,486
    Hello posters:
    I imagine that you are all familiar by now with the "Rebuilt"
    movement. It is gaining much traction, bishops are recommending
    the movement. There are books, websites, conferences,
    podcasts, and shows on Ave Maria radio.
    Many parishes are requiring their staff to read the materials.
    If you are not familiar with this movement, it woukd be a good
    idea to become familiar with their teaching. In simplified nutshell,
    the philiosophy is to apply thr principals of the evangelical church growth
    movement to the Catholic parish. The authors state this in the materials.
    Some key principals:
    1. People can only relate to contemporary music, traditional music is not relevant.
    2. Churches need a worship program not a music program.
    3. Choral music or "art music" is not music for worship.
    4. Beauty is unimportant - "people do not care about what the church building
    looks like" - a utilitarian philosophy - what matters is the comfort
    and convenience of the seeker.
    5. A downplaying of Catholic identity in favor of ecumenical evangelical
    ethos.
    6. What worked for them and brought them success is generally said to work
    for everybody.

    So....what should be our response to this movement?
    In the past, I have been content to sit back and be passive.
    With movements like this gaining strength, what should we do
    keeping in mind the virtue of charity in our actions?

  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    Charity means to tell the truth in love.

    http://www.onepeterfive.com/dont-rebuild-parish-restore/

    This video is hosted in that article.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u47uSo8b04s

    (you can add me to another list)
    Thanked by 2ghmus7 HeitorCaballero
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    If someone you know is really in love with REBUILT, suggest Forming Intentional Disciples to them. They have some common ground, but one is clearly better than the other.
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  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    Hmm... first I have heard of this... though according to our music director, it is a small faction that are into this type of thing... strongly clinging to it... but it is getting smaller. I am trying to figure out what you are saying about it gaining traction, as I see things going the other direction in my Archdiocese.

    I don't think a swing one way or another is necessarily a good thing. Taking the best of the Catholic church, putting it together, you will get something beautiful (classic and contemporary sacred music). I have seen and heard how many comments our Priest gets about the beautiful and wonderful Mass... people are flocking to our Parish for some reason.... and I believe it is for that reason.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I think we really have to watch out with rebuilt. It has really grown a lot and received endorsements from several well known and high up folks. And the content is pretty bad.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    Um, how is this different from the attitudes and agenda of the old 'spirit of Vatican II' crowd? It is a new strain, perhaps, of the same old virus.

    Thanked by 4CharlesW Jeffrey Quick francis CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    It's the same old crap, repackaged with new marketing. Lipstick on a pig...
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Charles is right. This reeks of the whole "participationism" thing again: get people in the pews and keep them there. That's all that matters. Quantity over quality and worse, sacrificing quality for quantity.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    .
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Pretty hard to believe Catholics are climbing on the megachurch bandwagon (if that's what this book is really about) just when it's showing all the signs of a failed experiment.


    U.S. Catholicism - a day late and many dollars short.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    Churches need a worship program not a music program.


    The OHCA Church already has a "worship program."

    It is called "Ordo Missae."

    Seriously, if we're going to follow some outside model, we'd do better to pattern ourselves after a successful corporation, Microsoft, or Starbucks, or GM, or something, big profits (at least for a time, on paper,) enormous growth, (at least for a time, paper,) lots of happy customers, (at least for a time, on paper.)

    'Cause, you know - bottom line.

    Come to think of it, why not the iMass, the McDonald's Happy Mass, the limited edition F/W 2014 Mass Collection featuring a collaboration between Karl Lagerfeld and Target?

    This could be the year of the Pumpkin Spice Mass!

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Mmm...Pumpkin Spice...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I still think money is, in a way, part of the root of all this evil. I remember some clergy trains of thought after Vatican II, and some of it went along the lines of:

    Look at the Protestants. They are happy, they sing, they tithe, they build, they have large and full parking lots, and on and on.

    Build the mega-churches and find new ways to get more money from the faithful. Big clerical egos need big structures filled with adoring fans. But it is a failing model. Some of those mega-churches are starting to disintegrate. They are personality cults built around charismatic ministers. When those ministers inevitably decline, the game is up. Can anyone say, "Crystal Cathedral?"
    Thanked by 1lagunaredbob
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    Come to think of it, why not the iMass, the McDonald's Happy Mass...

    I've long been of the (only slightly serious) opinion that what the Convenient Catholic Church needs to do is to buy up failed fast food restaurants and institute drive-thru Mass. Make your contribution at the first window, pick up the Host in styrofoam and a CD of a homily and a couple of hymns at the second. I suppose they'll have to park and come in for confession.
    Thanked by 1lagunaredbob
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I suppose they'll have to park and come in for confession.


    iConfession - a better idea! ;-)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Allow me to offer a different perspective on this program, and others.
    Nothing, no.thing., will take root and produce abundant harvests unless it is planted by the pastor and his vicars at any and all parishes. NOTHING.
    Whether an expert with a briefcase and powerpoint comes in telling/selling you some package deal on "stewardship.....evangelization....missions....whatever," the first thing you want to assess isn't the outward facial support of the pastor, if he's even at the meeting, but what sort of direct energy he and his priests will engage when the program is accepted and is in place.
    If you have an involved, smell of the sheep pastor, your chances are good. And, you are very blessed for that, as many parishes.....well, 'nuff said.
    In the late 50's there was a pastor, I think his name was similar to Hillebrand, who started, in his own parish, an architected program of liturgical renewal where every aspect of parish life was filtered and expiated through the lens of worship then service.
    Sunday was the defining element.
    It was stunning the first time I read about this. How did the Church let that focus unravel if from Pio X to that priest to S.John23 forward kept telling and showing the way out of the morass of lazy modernity?
    What the heck is going on in seminaries?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Our parish went through the outside consultants, power points, planned giving and associated garbage some years ago. We still owe $1.6 million from that, when all the consultants said it would succeed. What happened? 2008, which no one predicted or believed would happen. Now we have a new school gym in an area with unfriendly demographics and a declining school enrollment. Let's kill all the consultants! LOL.
    Thanked by 2rich_enough francis
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    What the heck is going on in seminaries?
    The Sixty Four Thousand Dollar Soul Question.
    In the late 50's there was a pastor, I think his name was similar to Hillebrand, who started, in his own parish, an architected program of liturgical renewal where every aspect of parish life was filtered and expiated through the lens of worship then service.
    Sunday was the defining element.

    And that is what I meant when I coined the phrase "save the Liturgy, save the world."
    Either we believe the Liturgy is the source and summit of our faith or we don't.
    And if we do, we know it doesn't much matter _what_ else we do in our parishes if we don't get that right.
    And I think it's a little lot like the oxygen coming down from above you seat on a plane - "if you are traveling with a child, or anothe passenger who needs your help, put on YOUR mask first."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 4melofluent CHGiffen francis eft94530
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    The overriding points of Rebuilt are quite valid. Don't fixate on their particular music flavor. They even say in the book that the model can probably work with other styles of music.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,050
    The overriding points of Rebuilt are quite valid.

    Could you be more specific? Musical "flavor" (?) aside, from what I can see it has all the marks of a slick marketing campaign, without even concentrating on what any marketer will tell you - what makes your "product" unique.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    The overriding points of Rebuilt are quite valid.

    Uh... yeah, no.

    Average weekly attendence 3,500 at the Church of the Nativity.

    Confessions every Saturday, 1:00 PM – 3:00PM

    Or 1.7 minutes of confession per parishoner per year? That's not a place on fire with truly Catholic spiritual renewal.


    Thanked by 3CHGiffen G BruceL
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    What Fr. White understands (i.e., gets right) is that you've got to do something.

    All the other details are, in my view, either the outright wrong choice, or up for some debate. But in the field of mainstream Catholic parishes in America (which many of us are fortunate to have found/built/rebuilt our way out of), doing something is the first step.

    Thinking about what to do is unfortunately beyond the capacity of too many US pastors. The real problem is our bishops are not providing the tools for doing anything - because to endorse one tool would offend someone. And so, Rebuilt is what we're left with: a tool that fills that need, which a pastor can adopt in varying degrees that won't upset people that will make it look like he's doing something.

    What's our response? Our version of that? I fear it would take too much work and/or upset too many people for those who prefer Rebuilt.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    you've got to do something
    YES!

    LEARN the faith and LIVE it. No more will help; no less will do.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    There was a fairly famous experiment done in the early years of studying management theory and working environment.

    The researchers turned the lights up really bright in a factory, and measured the change in productivity.

    It improved.

    Then they brought it back to normal and productivity went back to normal.

    Then they lowered the lights, and measured.

    Productivity improved again.

    It seems that the thing that made a difference wasn't the lighting, but rather THE SIMPLE FACT OF PAYING ATTENTION.

    ----

    There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that parishes which have implemented a truly sacred music program and a "high" or "solemn" approach to liturgy are experiencing a lot of growth.

    Also, parishes that have implemented seriously high quality praise-band/LifeTeen contemporary-styled liturgies frequently experience a lot of growth.

    ----

    I know nothing at all about REBUILT, except this:

    Doing anything at all that requires you to pay attention will be more successful, by any measurable standard, than doing nothing and not paying attention.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Have any of you actually read the book?

    Could you not relate to the stories in it? I sure could! The story about first arriving at Nativity and there being nasty, stifling notes, with exclamation points everywhere:
    "Under NO circumstances should this window be opened!!!" I've seen that. Or how about the complainers who complained about the free food? I know those people!

    The broader point of the book isn't about this type of music, or putting a coffee cart in the front of the church. And I disagree a LOT with many of the ways they carried these things out.

    But Fr. White makes a great point when he talks about getting to the point of saying "This is how we're doing it!" and going forward with it. He also has great points about forming intentional communities and engaging people, and the need for good homiletics.

    If you're focusing on the style of music or upon the length of confession times, you're missing the bigger and most important points.

    Oh, and the idea that "We have the Catholic faith. That's enough?" Let me know how that works out for you. The point made above about doing SOMETHING is spot on.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    There is nothing wrong with doing something, if that something addresses a genuine need. Too many "somethings" are activity for the sake of activity and produce little of lasting importance.

    Perhaps trying to open that window could have caused the whole thing to drop onto your head. There might have been a reason for that sign. LOL.
    Thanked by 5CHGiffen MatthewRoth M. Jackson Osborn ClergetKubisz Spriggo
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    Oh, and the idea that "We have the Catholic faith. That's enough?
    Nope. You gotta LIVE it! Too many 'have' it and don't live it or believe it. Did you watch the video? THAT is what I am talking about.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Even without reading the book you can get some understanding of it: you can look at the website and see the on-line resources for each chapter -- which give you some idea of what the chapter's about. And some of it is good.

    But I can see how musicians might perceive it as a threat. In a lot of multi-church parishes, I don't think it would be possible to carry out much of the program. We're a two-church parish with one priest, and most of our Sunday Masses are said by professors from a nearby seminary and by retired priests. They're on-site for 90 minutes a week, and then they go, often to assist at some other church. The "Rebuilt" program seems to call for the Sunday homily to be designed by a team that meets during the week, so that's just not practical. But a pastor might just be tempted to order measures that don't require his time, such as a change in music. So a program like this could turn into one more way for pastors to put the responsibility for the success of the parish on musicians and not on themselves.

  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @Chonak: Many priests already order measures that require less of their time, including changes in the music and how the music is selected. I am at a parish where that has happened before. I was even told at one point "this is taking up too much of my time" by the Pastor, and he ordered me to get a mentor.

    @PGA: the problem with "something" is that it can quickly become "anything," then you don't really have a solution, you have something done just for (as Charles stated) the sake of doing something. It's like politicians making unnecessary laws just so it looks like they're doing their phony baloney jobs. Oh, no! The bank got robbed again! Let's make a law against wearing purple sweaters since that's what the robber is said to have worn during the heist!
    Thanked by 3rich_enough francis G
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    One of our priests (eastern) was told how busy a local Latin priest was after the eastern priest had finished one of our multi-hour services. The eastern priest said, "How is he so busy? It's not like he has that much to do." This was during Easter. I don't think all priests really work that hard or that long, compared to what many others do. Many in the congregation probably put in more hours at less satisfying work. Priests can be a bit spoiled, sometimes, and farm out much of their work to staff and volunteers.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    If you're focusing on ... the length of confession times, you're missing the bigger and most important points.

    I think it's diagnostic of what they think are the important points. Attendance is important in Rebuilt... authentic Catholic spiritual life less so. They place great emphasis on following the best practices of local evangelical groups, but local evangelical groups have different theology and thus different best practices.

    Promoting the sacrament of confession is a key Catholic practice for spiritual renewal. No evangelical best practices will apply... since they don't believe in it. If you get people to a) show up b) participate in a small group and c) engage in a ministry like parking lot ministry or hospitality, or whatever, and yet aren't getting them to confess their serious sins at least once a year, they're not being formed in the ordinary means of Catholic spiritual practice, the ordinary means of salvation.

    Local megachurches drawing from a Reformed tradition with its scepticism of art may be fine with Rebuilt's position: "Whether your church is beautiful matters not in the least to the lost; that it is well maintained is critical," they write.

    That's insane. It's clearly not compatible with the teaching of Sacrosanctum Concilium on sacred art in numbers 122-129.

    Sacred art, the Council teaches has the "aim of turning men's minds devoutly toward God." And it is effective for that purpose! Beautiful Churches do indeed attract people to the faith. To just dismiss that out of hand!?
    Thanked by 4irishtenor HeitorCaballero francis G
  • lmassery
    Posts: 424
    I've read the book cover to cover. There are some good practical suggestions that any parish can learn from. He has an interesting way of delegating everything to volunteers, focusing entirely on the weekend, and moving forward with a plan despite opposition. However, Fr. Michael spends the first few chapters railing against the consumer attitude of his parishioners, and the rest of the book explaining how to cater to a new type of consumer attitude. It is very much geared toward the 30 something crowd. If one could combine his hip website and some other useful practices with a truly solemn catholic liturgy that doesn't lower itself to American cultural expectations, it could work really well.
    Thanked by 2Gavin BruceL
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    If one could combine his hip website and some other useful practices with a truly solemn catholic liturgy that doesn't lower itself to American cultural expectations, it could work really well.


    Yes. I would agree with this.

    Before people react in opposition. Does the Faith require this? No. Could it hurt? As long as this cart doesn't end up in front of the horse.

    But as long as those of us who should know better than to let that happen keep avoiding it just because it could be dangerous in the hands of someone less careful(?), we are in fact opening the door to let others do the work - who may not see the full picture.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • HeitorCaballero
    Posts: 92
    ...never heard of it
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    This is my response.
    rebuilt_theme.pdf
    11K
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  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    "Jesus is coming"
    "Look busy"
  • johnmann
    Posts: 175
    I haven't read the book or attended the service/Mass/concert/coffee hour. You can watch a live stream on Sunday: http://churchnativity.churchonline.org/schedule

    I'm basing the following on hearsay. Apparently, it's not the Spirit of Vatican II repackaged. Rather than an emphasis on active participation, there's an emphasis on engagement. Keep the audience's attention. Throw up a slideshow, put on a show.

    Having said that, I'm sure there's plenty to learn. Whatever the response to the movement's deficiencies, it can't be "Gregorian chant, period." How do you engage the kids or the dads who see Mass as a chore?

    On the subject of confession, parishes really should try to have confessions during Mass. It works. The Saturday afternoons obviously isn't working.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    I read the book when it came out. My response back then was exactly like the video I posted above.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    The part of the book that disturbed me the most is this quote:

    I vividly remember my first Christmas eve at Nativity, specifically, the 4pm Mass... The cantor, someone you did not want to tangle with, was late (as usual) and visibly disorganized as she arranged herself at the podium. As I waved at her from the back to try to get things started, she angrily snapped at me through the microphone, "I start when I'm ready." Starting, int turned out, wasn't starting Mass. Instead, to my surprise, we were to be serenaded by her seven-year-old daughter on the violin. (Alas, I will never again be able to listen contentedly to "O Holy Night.")


    I have no doubt in my mind that this little girl probably shouldn't have been playing at Mass... but does a 7 year old need to be humiliated in print form?

    If the author is really concerned with reaching Tim and bringing him closer to Christ - shouldn't he be worried about what Tim would think if he opened this book and saw him attacking a 7 year old girl who was obviously playing at Mass because she was being asked to do so by a parent or music director.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    That is a strange story. One of our members worked at that parish from 1998 to 2000, so it would be informative if he could shed any light on it.

    How do you engage the kids or the dads who see Mass as a chore?

    This is a good point. As far as I can tell, men are an underrepresented population segment in typical Catholic parishes (i.e., at OF Masses in English), and we ought to ask ourselves whether the experience of attending Mass (preaching, music, ars celebrandi) is doing anything to attract them or drive them away.
    Thanked by 2francis irishtenor
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    "...see Mass as a chore...." "....attract or drive away...."


    Hmmmm.

    I have serious reservations about imposing Marketing 202 terminology and concepts on the question of one's obligation to God.

    Granted that there is no intent to do so by members of this forum, it seems that we are accepting and using the language (i.e., accepting the terms of the debate) offered by the "business of church" people.

    And by the way: since we are obliged to worship God, it IS "a chore." Duty often is just that.

    So what?
    Thanked by 3francis irishtenor ClergetKubisz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    And by the way: since we are obliged to worship God, it IS "a chore." Duty often is just that.
    I totally agree. And, the chore should be one that requires every bit of energy, talent, resource and time we have to make it the best expression of worship we can offer. God deserves nothing less. Therefore, IMHO, the OF (in its usually 'ordinary' form) as practiced in most of our parishes is truly a disgrace and an insult to God. Cheap vestments, cheap music, cheap architecture all sends a very strong message not only to God, but to the children and upcoming generations who will then carry on with the insults into the future. I fear we are going to pay dearly for all of this soon.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    ...sends a very stong message not only to God, but to the children and upcoming generations...


    How true! Everything we do, from our attitude to the mass, where it fits in our priorities, the quality of all the arts we engage in worship, the quality of our participation, etc., etc., does indeed send a crystal clear message to God, and to our youth. There are those who like to say '...oh, well God doesn't care about....'. Nonsense! God isn't the One who doesn't care. It is the people who say such things who don't care, who really couldn't care less. I think that God not only cares, but notices!
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    There are times I feel it useless to argue for more solemn, beautiful, and sacred music within the Mass over the guitar/rock band type of a Mass... as there always seems to be the argument that it is a personal preference thing. I have thought heavily on this subject, prayed on it, and really think that it comes down to what "feels good" on the surface, or what really hits you "deep, deep" within. What really kicked things into high gear for me was the Easter Vigil at my Parish. The fire outside, the procession with candles into the church. Candle light, beautiful hymns in Latin and English, the beauty of both piano and organ, with the choir, with males and females singing two different things, the cello, and at the end of Mass... even a trumpet. It brought tears to my eyes. It wasn't an "alleluia" jump up and PRAISE THE LORD type of thing... it was felt deep deep within. And this is coming from a 25 year old male.

    And we are a successful Parish.... fairly active.. our median age is 39 years old for membership, with a good percentage younger than that. A lot of families, increased school attendance and increased membership to the Church in the past year. I have even seen parents take their kids to the adoration chapel we have. No need for contemporary praise music, no need for a coffee bar, none of that.

    Thanked by 2Adam Wood ClergetKubisz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    WICatholic

    Thank you for your honesty and frank observation. Do pray for all of us here in CMAA, especially those who suffer from being ostracized for trying to do what the Church wants.
    Thanked by 1WICatholic
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    WICatholic, I wish it were better in my part of WI. I am happy that you are so fortunate!
    Thanked by 1WICatholic
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    Of course I will, francis! I always want people to know what I have seen, as it has to be worth something. Sometimes I feel like I am hitting my head against a brick wall on this subject, but I find going to Mass every week as a meditation and a place to be thankful, and a great break from everyday life.

    GHGiffen.... I think it varies heavily in the Archdiocese of MKE that I reside in. I went to a Mass on the other side of the city that had a family band playing in a beautiful old church. Complete with tambourine, two guitars, and a keyboard. Interestingly enough, the church was half empty. My wife and I were about to walk out, and we bolted at the end of Mass when the people started clapping for the band. Needless to say, I felt the need to attend Mass the next day (Sunday) at my Parish.

    I used to live in the Diocese of Green Bay and went to a Parish in the Diocese of La Crosse (Central WI) for many years.... all of which I have found to have a variety of musical differences. The churches I went to, while they had Haugen/Haas type music... at least were played on an organ or piano... and no guitars or tambourines.

    Again, praying for you all... I guess I am just praying that things remain the way they are where I am at.... because it was hard to find what I have found. Hopefully eventually things will improve more... though I think it is going to take some time of hurt to get there....
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    Oh, well, i'm in the Diocese of Superior, which might explain it all then. Thank you for your prayers.
  • WICatholic
    Posts: 35
    Gotcha... the direct opposite part of the state from me! I am curious though, since it is the offshoot from the Arch of MKE, that the recent synod they had here for the Arch will carry over to the other Diocese underneath it. I know "quality of music" was one of the big things on the list... and in reading the synodal documents... it talked about how people in the congregation complained about the quality of music at churches. Not sure if all will take that the correct way, but my take was high quality, sacred music is what is being requested...

    See the below about what they wrote about... talks about the loss of Latin in the Mass and such... though it was interesting....

    http://www.archmil.org/Synod-2014/District-Gatherings/bckgrnd/Liturgy.pdf
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    There are those who like to say '...oh, well God doesn't care about....'. Nonsense! God isn't the One who doesn't care. It is the people who say such things who don't care, who really couldn't care less. I think that God not only cares, but notices!

    Jackson, that is an admirable mindset with which no one need contend. However, my take on scriptural support for that notion moves God's care from the focal "nature" of our individual and corporate worship quality, to whether we, who do care make the extraordinary (pun intended) effort to change the lazy or hard hearts of those who could care less about the nature and quality of our worship. There's a subtle but important distinction in that. God cares that the hearts of His ultimate creatures fully express not just the desire but need to worship Him appropriately. Worthiness and beauty remain in our bailywick to decide and infuse.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • PhatFlute
    Posts: 219
    Phats opinion: It is not wrong but, it also is not right. We must all think of it,

    Ph
    Thanked by 1G
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