Recruiting men to the choir...

canadash

Someone suggested that I have a "men's day" where I would have a rehearsal prior to Mass and invite any interested men to sing. I know there are a few who sing who aren't in the choir and don't wish to be in it. I will do my best to coax them into coming for the day, just to encourage others to come out of the woodwork, if not for this year, then for next.

I would like to sing something in two parts which would be easy to learn, yet encourage the men (if I get any!) to return.

I plan on having beer and bacon for post Mass snacks.

Suggestions? Thanks!

Adam Wood

1. Sing manly music.
2. Ask men individually. "You. I need you."

canadash

Adam, trust me, I've asked. Men aren't "joiners."

"Manly music".... such as?

Salieri

"Manly music".... such as?

First: Gregorian Chant. Because, lets face it, even though women can and should sing chant, most recordings are by Monks not Nuns, and so many people, even seasoned choir people, consider chant to be a Manly Thing.

Second: Any real music like Palestrina, Bach, Handel, Mozart, Haydn, Bruckner, Franck, Vaughan Williams, Tallis, Gibbons, Morely, etc., etc. Basically stay away from soupy music with chromatic neighbour-tones coming out the (you-know-what) -- the music that people automatically seem to associate with the little old lady playing 'the good old songs' on the Hammond in her parlour.

M. Jackson Osborn

Be sure to have the men in your choir participate in this event. They could be excellent examples of virile participation and encourage others. Real men sing! (Only sissies don't.)

canadash

Yes, GC is on the agenda. We sing all the ordinary in GC at our parish (OF).

Yes, the men in my choir will be invited. I need those who I know can read.

But I guess what I'm looking for is "manly" music in two parts which can be learned in an hour - a motet/anthem.

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

Ask the priests to attend as well.

What Adam said has worked really well for me.

Salieri

You can do a search at CPDL for music in two parts (TB).

Adam Wood

The manliest music I know is Byzantine.

In a Roman Rite context, the single manliest piece of music I can think of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCq8zMd69us

Wendi

You all look so young in that.

noel jones, aago

Real men sing! (Only sissies don't.)

Obviously this is a sign of both prejudice as well as a total lack of contact with real singers!

If only "Manly men" were ordained priests there would be a lot of empty pulpits on Sunday.

Seriously, if one takes a good look around the majority of choir lofts you are going to find a lot of "sissies" and others who gravitate to things of sensitivity rather than rugby, blood and guts.

If Vivaldi had been a "Manly Man" he'd have spent a lot of time out in bloody soccer matches, depriving the world on thousands of music notes from his pen.

I'd drop the manly men idea and instead seek out the young men who are not welcome or do not appear interested in the "manly pursuits". Find young men, who through disabilities of one type or another - be it physical or in the nature of Asperger's or Autism - are not welcomed in the scouts, the football team, the basketball team or even the KOC.

They're Catholics too, and are waiting for you to find them and make them part of the church through your efforts. They'll never forget you - you gave them a chance.

If they are of age, they'll appreciate the bacon and beer, too! If not, they'll enjoy the bacon and look forward to the beer in the future.

CHGiffen

Here is my rather simple 2-part setting of Adoramus te, Christe (We adore thee, O Christ), for men's voices (nominally Tenor/Baritone, but the ranges are almost identical). The Tenor part is (except for replacing a leap of a fifth in the first measure by a stepwise ascent) the Gregorian melody for this chant. Both Latin and English text underlay are provided.

hilluminar

Chant accompanied with a drone. You are right, Adam, the most manly-sounding music comes from the Byzantine/Eastern rites. At the Maronite church I attend, the men all sing with extreme gusto. They sound a little on the rough and raw side. Incredibly manly! Wow! I imagine that type of singing would be very appealing to men. Gregorian Chant sounds positively feminine by comparison. Gregorian chant could sound a bit more manly by adding a subtle bit of rhythm to it. Rhythm in a piece causes the singer to feel a bit more in control of the piece, which is a positive thing, especially for men. Ok, now attack me. Someone usually does.

Jeffrey Quick

I'd trade you two men and next Advent's draft pick for a soprano and alto to be named later, but I think Immigration would have opinions (not to mention the men themselves.) Seriously, the 3 EF scholae I've had experience with have been majority-men.

CHGiffen

Presently at CPDL:

2 equal voices (not necessarily male)
Ach, Herr, strafe mich nicht (Georg Philipp Telemann)
Adoro te devote (Francisco Alcantar)
Agnus Dei (from the Canonical Mass) (Zoltan Paulinyi)
Born of the Father's love (John Earwaker)
Cantate Domino, No. 2 (Adam Gumpelzhaimer)
Herr, wie lange (Georg Philipp Telemann)
Hilf mir, Gott (Georg Philipp Telemann)
If the Savior stood beside me (Sally DeFord)
In dulci jubilo a 2 (Michael Praetorius)
Parce Domine (Richard Eldon Barber)
Templecombe Carol (Geoff Allan)

TT
Agnus Dei (Alastair Stout)
Alleluya: A nywe werke (Anonymous)
Amor potest - Ad amorem (Anonymous)
Ave Maria for 2 voices (Camille Saint-Saëns)
Ave Maria in G Major (Józef Kocięda)
Benedictus 'fuga ex una' (Antoine Brumel)
Currebant duo (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Eterno serviet (Anonymous)
Die Furcht des Herren, SWV 318 (Heinrich Schütz)
God hear on my crying (Christoph Dalitz)
Huic ut - Huic ut (Anonymous)
Iube Domine benedicere (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Maria stabat (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Missa a 2 voces aequales (Franz Lachner)
Pange melos lacrimosum (Anonymous)
Praesepe jam fulget tuum (Michael Praetorius)
Salve Regina I (Claudio Monteverdi)
Salve Regina II (Claudio Monteverdi)
Sol sub nube latuit (Anonymous)
Stella splendens in monte (Anonymous)
Vergente mundi vespere (Michael Praetorius)

TB
Agite dies lætitiæ (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Ave Maria (Lorenzo Perosi)
Ave Regina Caelorum (Francesco Cavalli)
Ave verum corpus, Op. 65, No. 1 (Gabriel Fauré)
Bicinia, Sive Cantiones (14 motets) (various)
Bicinia, Sive Cantiones (4 chansons) (Andreas Pevernage and Cornelius Verdonck)
Bicinium super Salve sancta parens (Adrianus Petit Coclico)
Blessed is he that considereth the poor (William Boyce)
Christus resurgens (John Byrchley)
Christus resurgens (Moris Gore)
Clama, ne cesses Syon filia - Alleluya (Anonymous)
Congaudemus Pariter - En Lux Immensa (Anonymous)
Credo III (Simone Stella)
Deus docuisti me (David Thoman)
Dialogo Peccator & Maria (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Ecce sacerdos (Samuel Webbe)
Ego sum alpha et O (Anonymous)
Franciscan Lauda (Anonymous)
Fulgebunt justi (Orlando di Lasso)
Gelobet seist du Jesu Christ (Caspar Othmayr)
Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God (Charles Harford Lloyd)
Homo quidam (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
I charge you, O daughters (Michael Wise)
Johannes-Messe (Manfred Hößl)
Justi tulerunt spolia (Orlando di Lasso)
Laetamini cito cum gaudio (Francesco della Porta)
Laudate Dominum (Lorenzo Perosi)
Like as we do put our trust (Charles Wesley, Jr.)
Maria, Mater gratiæ, Op. 47, No. 2 (Gabriel Fauré)
Missa "Te Deum laudamus" (Lorenzo Perosi)
Missa Brevis (Oliver Hayes)
Missa de Angelis (Simone Stella)
Missa in B for TB (Jacques-Nicolas Lemmens)
Missa in G, Op. 43 (Frantisek Zdenek Skuhersky)
Mother's Day Tango (Christopher W. Hart)
Novae aliquot, ad 2 voces cantiones (Orlando di Lasso)
Pour la Vierge (Felix namque), H. 360 (Marc-Antoine Charpentier)
Preparate corda vestra (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Qui vult venire post me (Orlando di Lasso)
Requiem aeternam (Christoph Dalitz)
Salve mater gracie (Anonymous)
Salve Regina (Giuseppe Oltrasi)
Sancti mei (Orlando di Lasso)
Serve bone et fidelis (Orlando di Lasso)
Sicut rosa (Orlando di Lasso)
Stille Nacht (Franz Xaver Gruber)
Summi triumphum regis II (Anonymous)
To Thee, O Lord My God (Benedetto Marcello)
Tota pulchra es (Orlando di Lasso)
Veni creator (César Franck)
Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her a 2 (Michael Praetorius)
Welcome to the Big Time (Chris Inglis)

BB
Cantate Domino (Giovanni Andrea Cima)
Confitebor tibi (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
Exaudi Deus (Giovanni Battista Riccio)
The Holy City (Stephen Adams)
Jesu, dulcis memoria I (Anonymous)
Justus ut palma florebit (Giovanni Paolo Cima)
Missa de profundis (Luis de Stoa)
Oculus non vidit (Orlando di Lasso)
Redit aetas aurea (Anonymous)
Vidi speciosam (Giovanni Battista Riccio)

canadash

Charles, thanks for the help... I think?! I have some homework to do don't I?

The bacon was Ben's idea. The beer idea was stolen from my uncle's choir in Slovenia; but they used whiskey and there is no drinking age.

I had a Slovenian choir that was 2/3 men. Every Sunday there had to be a TTBB motet. "Manliness" didn't matter. It mattered that they could sing, and from childhood the gift was encouraged and nurtured, and if God gave you that gift, you had better use it to His glory or there would be consequences at home and from extended family! I think therein lies the difference.

M. Jackson Osborn

.

Salieri

Sport is one thing. (And you can do both: I heard an anecdote about a Bass singer in a West Gallery Quire in England from the 18th Cent. - in addition to singing in the choir he was also a champion wrestler - and, as a practical joker, the bane of the Choir Master's existence.) But I think that many young men (in our increasingly "tolerant" "culture") are afraid of doing things that people consider "gay". This is, I think, a by-product of the homosexual rights movement's apologia by way of digging up things about people - many long dead, and much of it circumstantial evidence - to say: "Look N. was gay. See, gay people have been responsible for much of the great art/music/literature/etc. of Western Civilization". (This is at least my experience from High School ('05), where I particularly noticed this way of thinking. YMMV.) It is because of this that music, and the arts in general, have been considered a "gay" thing in recent years. Again, YMMV.

donr

Salieri, I think you might be right, unfortunately. I guess I never thought of that before.

I guess next year, I'll tell everyone that we are starting a fantasy football league in our parish to get some men to show up.
Or maybe a bring your classic car to rehearsal night.
Or everyone who shows up to rehearsal gets a free subscription to "Guns and Ammo" or "American Hunter" magazine.

SkirpR

I recognize - unfortunately - this isn't possible in every case, but frankly (and quite politically incorrectly), from my experience working in Catholic boys' schools and directing men's choirs, a large portion of combatting the above problems comes down to younger men seeing an example of strong male leadership. Whether this is with vocations to the priesthood or feeling comfortable singing with the choir, if there is a strong male model, young men will eventually follow suit.

While a handful of special boys or young men have the initiative and inspiration to seek after their own model of a strong leader (whether a priest or musician - or both) - or even create it for themselves - most can only respond to a model they can see and know.

For a parish or choir without such a model, the struggle, I fear, will be great until this first guy can be found.

Psychologically speaking, in choral music, I've found in most cases it's much more difficult for a female director to lead an amateur group of men than the other way around - although challenges abound in either situation.

kenstb

Salieri, you raise a good point about the perception that many people have about male singers and church musicians in general. I have always thought of the choir to be a good place to be if a man was looking for a good catholic wife. In my experience, choirs are full of decent, intelligent and talented catholic women, and we all know that nothing attracts a good wife more than a man who can sing. ; ) Of course, YMMV.

Richard Mix

My dear Salieri,

Have a look at some of Charles Ives' prose and then reconsider whether fear of being thought a pansy is a development of such recent years.

Salieri

RM: I'm not saying that said fear is a development of recent years, but that it has strengthened and increased in recent years.

SkirpR

In my experience, choirs are full of decent, intelligent and talented catholic women, and we all know that nothing attracts a good wife more than a man who can sing.

As an aside, I met my wife in choir. :)

MarkThompson

Chant accompanied with a drone.

Yes, very manly.

Gavin

Why not face the facts? The constituency of men most likely to join the choir (and offer a positive contribution) isn't the chest-thumping football-obsessed chauvinistic neo-caveman that some seem to seek to attract. I know few male singers like that. I know fewer good male singers like that.

Offer a good experience doing quality music, and those that are interested and can make the commitment will.

matthewj

I've been hanging out in a lot of bars that have KARAOKE recently. It seems to me that most men who sing at these bars choose country songs or patriotic songs. I'm not sure what this has to do with this thread, but I made this observation last night to a friend and it rang true through the entire evening. There were 6 men that participated and 5 of them sang country music and one sang two patriotic pieces. There were 11 women who participated in the karaoke. Their songs varied wildly from rock to rap. Only one woman sang a country song.

musiclover88

But I think that many young men (in our increasingly "tolerant" "culture") are afraid of doing things that people consider "gay".

I think this is absolutely true. I've noticed that men over 30 or so who are very confident and like to sing will join a choir, but a younger man who maybe isn't as confident will not be so quick to want to sing. It's really too bad, but I don't know what to do to change it.

M. Jackson Osborn

Clearly, we need some more-or-less-agreed-upon notion, or parameters, of what constitutes manliness. For some this seems to call to mind Gavin's chest-thumping football-obsessed neo-caveman. Others seem to think that this signifer signifies a military drill sargeant, or perhaps an SS trooper, the stereotypical truck driver, or the callous sports coach. To my mind all these, and anything akin to them are gross, grotesque caricatures of male humanity, warped and unwholesome examples of everything that constitutes true, virtuous, manliness. Again, I say real men sing to the Lord. Sissies don't, wont, or are terribly afraid to allow themselves to. Someone above called attention to the frequent presence in holy orders, choirs, etc., of men who, shall we say, would not fit the macho mode, implying, then, that these men were unmanly. I think that they are quite manly. And it is trashy and uncivilised to suggest that they aren't. They are far more manly, wholesome and virtuous than what some seem to think 'manliness' implies. By all means, avoid giving credence or legitimacy to the least impression that singing in the choir is unmanly. This is rubish! Absolute rubish! Any suggestion of it should be greeted with a deluge of uncontrollable laughter!

(Perhaps at your recruiting event you should have CDs of choirs of men and boys, and the all men's choirs of West Point's chapel, etc., playing noticeably in the background. I doubt that anyone would suggest that these men were unmanly and walk off without a few bruises.)

canadash

but I don't know what to do to change it.

@musiclover88: I have four sons who love to sing. Of course, I don't know your particular life's circumstance, but I think I am helping effect change by nurturing music in my own family. My eldest sons happily sing and chant in the choir and I thank God for their willingness to do so. I can only do, what I can do, and this is my small contribution.

I also think I am raising "manly" men. My teenagers love to play sports, especially hockey. They love to be competitive, active and rough at play.

As Fr. Z would say: "Brick by brick."

noel jones, aago

Again, I say real men sing to the Lord. Sissies don't, wont, or are terribly afraid to allow themselves to.

This is rubish!

Adam Wood

Since I was the first person to mention manly songs:

I grew up constantly being called a fag, queer, or sissy for my involvement in theatre and music (and, I guess, my manner generally) in a football-centric public high school (mind you, I was almost never without a girlfriend from 7th grade onwards).

Also, I'm a little tired of the constant BS that streams forth from traddie blogs about how feminized the Mass has become and we need a MORE MANLY LITURGICAL STYLE (like lace albs and ~~pink~~ ROSE fiddlebacks). I saw something on FB the other day about some hideous chalices that looked like they were made of bowls and curtain rods, and some commenter (female, BTW) said something about how RIDICULOUS AND FEMININE they were, and that a man should never use them. Honey, ugliness is not a feminine quality.

I did NOT mean manliness as opposed to womanliness. I meant manliness as opposed to childishness.

The problems that the ANGRY TRADDIES® are constantly attributing to FEMINIZATION are actually problems of infantilization, and the confusion sets in because ~~chauvinistic buttheads~~ certain men essentially group "women and children" into the same category (ever notice: "babe" "chick" "girl").

All that to say:
While my example was an overtly masculine chant, what I mean to say is:
Sing grown up music. Adult music.

We should be doing this for our female choristers as well. They deserve it. But we don't notice it as being as much of a problem because women (THIS IS MY OPINION) seem to be, in general, willing to put up with a lot more crap than men are. They shouldn't have to, though that is a different conversation.

Since men are, typically, less willing to put up with crap (especially crap from a religious organization) they are (like children, who also don't handle crap well) a good barometer for non-crappiness of (some) things.

Sing manly music for the men. Sing womanly music for the women. Sing grown up music for all of them, including the children - who need to learn how to become mature adults, and who tend to hate childishness anyway.

CHGiffen

Give me some men who are stout hearted men...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vjqfvZVReM

noel jones, aago

Sing manly music for the men. Sing womanly music for the women.

So men should not sing the Ave Maria. The Salve Regina...

Really, chant...is sexless. Modern music is not.

Jeffrey Quick

I'm a little tired of the constant BS that streams forth from traddie blogs about how feminized the Mass has become and we need a MORE MANLY LITURGICAL STYLE (like lace albs and pink ROSE fiddlebacks).

THIS.

rob

True, but I'm fundamentally with AW. The essential distinction is between "adults" of either sex and "infants", though training their voices to reflect their faith presents various challenges depending on their sex. And what may be perceived as the voice of an adult man or woman will vary not only on the style of music they are singing, but also according to the sacred text they are proclaiming.

If you get this right, I suspect everything else will fall into its proper place.

And, after all, who among even the most "manliest" of man hasn't put on something at the urging of a mother or wife?

ClergetKubisz

The problems that the ANGRY TRADDIES® are constantly attributing to FEMINIZATION are actually problems of infantilization, and the confusion sets in because chauvinistic buttheads certain men essentially group "women and children" into the same category (ever notice: "babe" "chick" "girl").

Adam is entirely correct in this assessment of our state of affairs: the problem isn't that things are feminized, and turning away the men, but as he states "infantilized" and turning away both sexes.

kenstb

rob...seriously??

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

Concerning manliness from this woman's perspective:

stop yer blabberin and just be a Christian man!

If you have some kind of voice and Thursday evenings free, why not join the choir? Just do it! Beer comes later- ya gotta earn it, men!!

It's all too easy to go the way of naval gazing and/or "magic bullet" thinking. Was John Wayne or St. Francis Xavier or St. Thomas More or St. James the apostle musing all day long about showing manliness or blaming women for their not stepping up to the plate? Is outrage!

rob

For kenstb,

Seriously, I'm not sure: is there something I said that I should excuse as a bad joke?

Gavin

I've assumed Rob is referring to a mother or wife making him wear a pink shirt or something. And I'm not going any farther with it.

rob

She said it was salmon.

Salieri

Was if for Gaudete/Laetare?

rob

How'd you guess?

Off-topic, I know, but what's up with the congregation's dressing for the liturgical season?

melofluent

Threshold of insanity breach, ah ooh gah!
Firstly, this "pinko" nonsense was passe by the mid-50's, what with Joe McCarthy, Roy Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover (of all people) calling out scores of folks as pinko infidels.
Second, you'll have to pry my Polo pink golf and button downs from my cold, fat fingers after I'm dead.
Thirdly, just do what MACW sez. Roosevelt up, gentlemen and be all that you can be!
Uh, that would be baritones....

MaryAnn Carr Wilson

Rob, that is a great topic to start. Not really musical, but hey I guess I like it since I've wondered the same thing.

Carl D

I've been debating whether to enter this conversation, because parts of it are quite different from my own experience.

My first schola started exclusively with men, and I battled to attract women over the years - no one wanted to be the only female. The men tended to be older, 40+, but that appeared to be because (1) it's easier to have the time to devote when your kids are older or out of the home; and (2) they tended to be more attractive to the historical value of chant.

I paid absolutely no attention to "manly" music or whatever - never crossed my mind. Nobody ever had problems with, say, Marian devotions.

In the current schola of which I'm a member, there's a mixture of ages, much of which stems from being a university parish. We have a number of students in the schola. I've never heard any hint of "gay-ness". People are involved because they love singing, they love the music, they like challenge, and they want to bring their talents to benefit the church.

Don't talk down to the stereotypes of what you think men will like, it's dishonest and attracts people for the wrong reason. If it works at all. Go for the people who love good music in church, like to learn, and want to make a difference with their talents.

OK, have some beer, sure. With a sense of humor. Sacred music can be a whole lot of fun.

brndurham

I'm kind of with Adam here. Speaking as a guy who as often been accused of being gay, for both being the more soft-spoken, nonsporty type with a love for singing, liturgy and aesthetics, AND discerning a priestly vocation, it gets endlessly annoying for Trads to insist on 'masculinising' the liturgy (or rather, their version of masculine). I mean, really, nothing screams masculine like draping the altar and the ministers in 50% Linen, 50% lace vestments? Frankly, it takes a priest, sacristan or cantor with some 'feminine' qualities to recognise when something is aesthetically wrong in a church; because let's be honest, there aren't a whole lot of beer-guzzling, football-watching, ex-Marine-priests that will admit to being able to tell Rose from Pink, know what's a proper altar set and what's just gaudy, or know when one vestment is simply too tacky to wear. A more stereotypically 'feminine' (in the modern American sense) priest would, theoretically, be better suited for celebrating the liturgy properly, because they actually have a good eye and ear for aesthetics. The problem is not a de-masculinised liturgy- it is a childish one.

Adam Wood

I'm kind of with Adam here

Just to be clear, none of that is what I was getting at.

In the early 20th century, Odo Casel said that modern man is incapable of a true act of liturgical worship. Sometimes I think post-modern man might be incapable of having a conversation.

Whatever.

My only suggestion above was to sing grown-up music.

brndurham

I know. That why I said 'kind of', not just "I'm with Adam."

The problem is not a de-masculinised liturgy- it is a childish one.

I hope you'll at least agree with this one?

Adam Wood

Oh, I don't disagree with what you said. I was just saying it isn't what I was saying.

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