Interpretation of chant in reconstruction of 15th c Mass
  • Would anyone share their opinion on this cantors interpretation of the chant? I very much appreciate this interpretation.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIODLdz6vEc
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    In a building with reverberation like that one, fairly quiet singing can be heard anywhere. Presumably the re-enactors are trying to represent a likely scenario rather than the most artistic performance.

    Incidentally, the choice of Credo III may be an anachronism: the Graduale attributes it to the 17th century.
  • This is a very touching re-enactment which perhaps captures more of general atmosphere than of actual reality. The chant would most likely have been sung rather slower and with a more deliberate delivery; and the Latin have been heavily accented with the native tongue (Scandinavian?) to the point that it was hardly recognisable as Latin. It was interesting and impressive that the cantor seemed to be singing all the chants from memory, a not altogether unlikely possibility. The people seemed to be seated most of the time on pews (benches). Such were not found in churches until centuries later. Many thanks for putting this up! Such things are always heartwarming. Even if they are not thoroughly accurate they give us a sniff and a glimpse!
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    Please come back.

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  • Tonsures?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    The chant would most likely have been sung rather slower and with a more deliberate delivery


    Perhaps. The term "elevated speech" comes to mind on hearing this presentation.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    One thing I noticed: everything was as expected until after the Gospel, and then they went immediately to the Credo, and then the sermon, followed by reciting several things in the vernacular: the Credo, Pater Noster, and Ave Maria, as far as I could tell. Then they continued on with the Offertory antiphon.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    What is going on here? Are these actors? Is that a real priest or someone playing a priest?
    Thanked by 2Ben Gavin
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    It's really interesting. I kind of like it.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Chonak,

    I see credo 1, not credo 3, at 23:00.
    Thanked by 2chonak Chris_McAvoy
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    The priest in the video is Anders Piltz, O.P., a Swedish Latinist and medievalist. He also presented the introduction to the program.

    The singer Mattias Östborn, is a long-time cantor and organist at the church in Visby on the island of Gotland (Sweden). In 2002 he was awarded the Pro Ecclesia medal.

    The program was produced by Gotland regional television.
  • What a find! I had seen snippets of this video before but not the whole thing. It was filmed at Endre, one of the hundred medieval churches on Gotland. Hire a car, take a week - it's worth seeing them all. What most struck me at Endre was the font: here is my flickr album.

    The music at the parish church in Visby (the only Catholic church on the island) is outstanding. I wrote this about it in an article for Latin Liturgy after visiting in 2011:

    On our second Sunday we were on the island of Gotland, where there was simply no choice: we attended the sole Sunday Mass at the island’s one Catholic church, in the walled medieval city of Visby. Both the deacon and the priest (a convert from Lutheranism) introduced us to their wives after Mass, while we shared Swedish flatbread, hallonberry jam and plums from the presbytery garden.


    In Visby, there was at least as much singing as there would have been at a Missa cantata in the Extraordinary Form: the readings were not chanted, but as if in compensation, the bidding prayers and the Eucharistic Prayer were. A small choir of four sang some simple motets at the offertory and communion; a schola cantorum of two (one of them playing organ chords the while) executed the proper Gregorian Communion antiphon (from the Graduale Triplex, I noticed), interspersing it with Psalm verses sung in Swedish to the appropriate Psalm-tone. Despite their small numbers, the singers made a fine sound; but it was very much art at the service of the liturgy, and here as elsewhere the people joined lustily in the congregational chants.
  • the Latin ... heavily accented with the native tongue (Scandinavian?) to the point that it was hardly recognisable as Latin.

    The pronunciation of Latin in medieval Scandinavia is a subject in which I am keenly interested, but I can find no literature on the subject. Any suggestions would be warmly welcomed!
  • Ben -
    Perhaps a linguist at a Scandinavian university could be of assistance (Gotteborg?), or a Scandinavian scholar at one of our universities. I cannot comment on Scandinavia specifically, except to note the very high probability (the certainty, actually) that Scandinavian Latin was pronounced as it was everywhere else, which is to say, like one's native tongue. This practice continues in the Anglicised Latin of English universities and public schools. Erasmus famously complained that, although Latin was supposed to be the universal language, he could not understand it when going from one country to another because in Germany it sounded like German, in France like French, in England like English, and so on. Today we have a convention (hardly more than a hundred years old) of pronouncing Latin rather as though it were Italian. Historically only Italians would have done this. Italianate, Liber Usualis church Latin is a fairy tale construct.

    The editors, Timothy J. McGee, A.G. Rigg, & David N. Klausner, of Singing Early Music (Indiana Univ Press, 1996) might well be of assistance. This book has chapters on early Latin in Britain, France, the Iberian peninsula, Italy, and Germany and the Low Countries. Though there is not, sadly, a chapter on Scandinavia, the editors may be able to point you in the right direction.

    An afterthought: also, this Latin would have been pronounced as the Scandinavian language was pronounced in the 15th century, not as modern Scandinavian! So, one has two layers of 'authenticity' to unravel.
  • Thank you. This is very good advice; I hadn't really been thinking of Latin pronunciation as being an aspect of everyday pronunciation, but what you (and Erasmus) say makes perfect sense.

    I should probably start by getting my wife to teach me Old Norse.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    I should probably start by getting my wife to teach me Old Norse.


    I was JUST thinking this about my wife the other day.
  • So what is the difference between "italianate Liber Usualis Latin", which would be a fairy tale, and say the last 500 years or so of Roman Latin, which presumably the "Italians" would have been using?
  • Andrew -
    Your question is actually provocative (in the good sense!).
    The last 500 years of Roman Latin, shall we say up to the dissolution of the western Roman imperium by the late 5th centuries on, were, granted, not the Latin of Caesar and Cicero and Virgil. It was, though, still Latin. The transformation of Latin into Italian was a centuries long process which was still going on in Dante's time. Italian, whether modern, mediaeval, or post Roman, is not Latin, and would have been unintelligible to the Romans of any period. To think that an Italianate pronunciation of Latin has anything other than a self-referential authenticity is to be magnificently misinformed. It would be nonsense to the original speakers of Latin of any period. It would have been unintelligible to mediaeval Italians as well, and moreso to any people of historic times outside Italy.

    All this doesn't mean, though, that our Italianate Latin convention is without merit. It does make sense to have an agreed upon universal pronunciation of Latin so that it can, for the first time in over a thousand years, be the universal language it is supposed to be, particularly in liturgy. However, we shouldn't have any illusions that our convention has any real claim to being 'authentic' Latin. This is laughable. So, the debates over whether to pronounce 'o' as 'oh' or 'aw', or which of several pronunciations of 'ae' or 'oe' is the correct one, are a bit ludicrous. The only 'authentic' Latin in circulation today is the pronunciation of Kaisar's and Kikero's Latin that is taught in academia. It certainly isn't the churchman who says 'chaylee' and 'dawmeenoh' any more than it is the Englishman who says 'venightee exultimus dahminoh' and 'decaynigh' (for 'decani').

    For liturgical purposes it is well that we follow our Italiante convention, but without splitting hairs and becoming vexed with one another over the 'oh' vs 'aw' problem, because this convention really is a made up construct. When giving recitals of early music, though, or in giving academic presentations or concerts, one may wish to add the authentic touch of pronouncing the Latin as de Grigny or Couperin, or Palestrina, or Tallis, or Mozart, etc., would have heard it. When presenting a reconstructed village mass in late mediaeval Sweden, one might wish to hear the Latin as it would have been spoken at that time and place by folk to whom our modern Italo-Latin would have seemed quite eccentric. For church and liturgy, though, that is another matter. Just don't lose sleep over how closely you adhere to make-believe Liber Usualis Latin pronunciation.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    There are still many such regional conventions still alive and well; I think particularly among German-speaking countries (and Poland): such as pronouncing the -g- in words like agnus and dignus; and the -u- after -q- as an English -v- i.e. KVEE tollis.
  • At the repeated rising and kneeling during the Agnus I thought I saw a small number of chairs rather than anachronistic pews. The Latin sounds very like a North-German variety, with hard G in agnus, 'sharp' unvoiced S in miserere and the 'Venetian' soft TS in pacem: plausibly Swedish to me at least, though I don't catch the vowels so closed that O sounds like U that I've had to sing in modern Swedish.

    As to Credo III, I've previously doubted the Solesmes dates. Don't they in fact refer to preferred rather than earliest sources?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I have seen now 15th Century Scandinavian Mass, and 16th Century Sarum.

    I wonder what Mass in 13th Century Paris would have looked and sounded like?

    Or a reconstruction of the Mass according to the Gelasian Sacramentary?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    and 16th Century Sarum.


    As they say on the internet:
    PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN

    (translation: link, please)
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llnz3V9__n4

    This is part of a series of videos of Solemn Mass of Candlemas Day according to the Use of Salisbury at Merton College Chapel, Oxford. It should be noted that this wasn't an academic 'reconstruction' like the Scandinavian Mass, but was a real, live public Mass of the Day, with permission of the Ordinary. It might n't be 100% historically accurate, but it's better than nothing. I say 16th Century Sarum, because that was the last 'editio typica', if you will, of the Sarum books.

    (Incidentally, if you follow the link to the up-loader's blog on the YouTube description, you'll notice that he follows NLM and ChantCafe!)
  • A funny thing happened on the way to the forum -
    so many ways of pronouncing Latin... so little time.

    Having touched on the various national and cultural variations of our ecclesiastical tongue, there are yet others! To wit: the medical profession, botanists, biologists, and various other sciences. If you have ever heard your doctor speak medicalese, or your nurseryman speak botanese, you will no doubt wonder where on earth he or she learnt his Latin. It's really quite amusing sometimes. I think that in most cases these Latins are pretty close to the Anglicised Latin of English schools of learning. They never fail to sound utterly ingnorant, but such are the ways highly intelligent people were and are taught the technical language of their various professions. The next time you visit a nursery and notice an arbor vitae that has caught your eye, be careful when you ask about that are-bohr veetay: you are likely to get a puzzled look followed by 'oh, that's an arrber vytee, it's prehistoric'. Never mind that Virgil would have smirked at both of us and said (while carefully rolling his 'r') 'its ar-bor weetay if you please!' But then, somehow I don't think that we want to start singing 'ahway wehroom korpoos...' (while carefully rolling our 'r's).

    (Unless, of course, that was the way we heard it when we were five years old!)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,466
    My high school latin teacher thought classical Latin pronunciation was absurd.

    "No great Roman general would have said 'WEENIE, WEEDIE, WEAKIE'"

    I want to believe her, but alas, I think she was engaging in a bit of aspirational historiography.
  • Your teacher needed more imagination!
    Somehow I think that when Kaisar said Waynnee, WeeDdie, Weekkee it resonated authority.

    I used to think that a French Roi couldn't possibly have been as magnificent as an English King or a German Konig. But then, the French do have a rather magnificent way of pronouncing Roi.
  • Taking a page from Mr. Chips - "Vicissim" means "again". It isn't the reply of any able-bodied group of men as to how they handle their wives.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,177
    Don't forget the lawyers and legislators, with their writs of 'hay-bee-uhs cor-puhss' and their recess 'sigh-knee die' ('die' as in dead) or (as if they know "die" has two syllables) 'sigh-knee die-ee'.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • The chant would most likely have been sung rather slower and with a more deliberate delivery; and the Latin have been heavily accented with the native tongue (Scandinavian?) to the point that it was hardly recognisable as Latin.


    Proof to substantiate this, please. I do not believe that even wire recording had been invented or even thought of at this point in history.
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,228
    Noel: there are all sorts of experts on chant tempo. I met one who never directed a choir of any size, but did play the flute in a swanky bar or something. HE knew how fast my schola should've sung the stuff because.......because!! And yes, he's a priest.
  • I do not believe that even wire recording had been invented
    I'm sure it started out as an April 1 prank but there used to be a story of someone who applied for a grant to study spiral-incised pottery shards just in case the potter had steadied his hand on some kind of sounding board while caring on a conversation...
  • Fascinating!