how many verses to do on hymns??
  • Hello everyone,

    Before I arrived at the church I'm music director for now, the length of all the hymns was decided by the priest. He would come in from the side entrance aisle (even though we had a beautiful long back entrance) arrive and kiss the altar, go to the presider's chair. When he closed the hymnal usually verse two or three that was the end of the hymn. We since have a new pastor who is into listening to me as music director and supports me 100% in all music decisions. For the last two and a half years, we have processed in from the back of the church and sung all the verses on the opening hymn. We sing all the verses for the preparation hymn as much as time allows. (Usually the whole hymn though!) The recessional hymn has always been an issue. Very rarely do we sing the whole recessional hymn. What do music directors on this forum do with the closing hymn? Do you sing the whole hymn? I would like to propose the idea of having him wait the chair for at least 2 verses, sing the third on at the altar and process down on the fourth verse. This idea will vary of course on the length of the hymn. What have music directors on this forum found to work for them with the recessional hymn?? I am open to suggestions as well on this topic. I'm thinking by having the whole recessional hymn sung, people will stay in their pews and not leave halfway through the procession, which is a big issue with this parish. Thoughts are welcome!!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Since you have time-flexibility with the recessional hymn, I would suggest using your judgment, depending on the hymn itself. Some hymns have an interior logic and progression toward heaven that should be respected, when possible.

    For example if the last verse is a doxology, a Glory be to the Father..., then I would sing the entire hymn. Or if the last verse is somehow elevated into the eschatological realm, then I would sing all the verses. Many hymns speak of the heavenly goal in the last verse. That is precious stuff and I wouldn't omit it personally unless absolutely necessary under the circumstances.
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Every single priest in my parish for the past 20+ years sings almost to the end of the first verse, then closes the book and processes out on the second verse. I stop when the flow of people out exceeds those still singing. Of course it's a tiny church....

    Many hymns speak of the heavenly goal in the last verse. Yes. This bothers me as well.
  • Musicman,

    You have provided (and Jani has reinforced) the best possible reason to use the Propers assigned for the feast. Whether one sings recto tono, or uses the Liber or..... the Proper has a prescribed minimum length.

    Cheers,

    Chris
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Our new pastor both loves to sing, and hear the people sing. He stays for all the verses of the recessional hymn unless something happens that presses us for time. I usually cut the entrance hymn off at 4 verses, which seems to work well for us.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • I have always, as have most of us of Anglican heritage, been quite emphatic that the entire hymn be sung. For reason: it is a poem with a definite literary and theological message that should not be savaged by chopping it off in the interest of time or other (misplaced) priorities. I continue to believe that this is the best policy.

    However, I have come to have a moderately more flexible, and conditional, stance. Due to the fact that very many of our hymns are actually centos of much longer original works (for instance Jesus dulcis memoria and 'Of the Father's Love Begotten', and many more), I see nothing wrong in carefully choosing which stanzas to sing on a day on which, say, stanzas 1, 2, and 5, (or, 1, 3, 4, and 6) fit the daily lectionary very well, and the remaining ones were less applicable. Creating such centos out of what is already a cento should be done with love and care (which can be agonising!). In no wise should one just sing stanzas 1 and 2 simply because the rest are an 'inconvenience'. So, in a nutshell, if one must sing only some of the stanzas, choose conscientiously which ones they shall be. All this presupposes, of course, that one has chosen all the hymns because of their relevance to the day's lectionary! (But, it remains best to sing all stanzas.)

    (Actually, it occurs to one that if people [and that includes priests!] have been catechised properly in their hymnody, they would be aware of the import of the words they are singing and would notice and be rather bothered that what they were singing made little sense because of any omitted stanzas.)
    Thanked by 3Spriggo CHGiffen Gavin
  • MJO,

    As a former Episcopalian, I love the hymn Lift High the Cross, but I think in most places you'd have trouble convincing people to sing all 15 verses.

    God bless,

    Chris
  • Indeed, Chris! In fact, with few exceptions, the only hymnals to include twelve or fifteen stanzas of a hymn are likely to be Lutheran ones, and even that may be a thing of the past. I have seen Lutheran hymnals of the recent past which had some hymns with as many as thirty stanzas! Our centos seem to be increasingly centoed!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    It seems that assemblers of hymnals have not heeded the advice: Go and cento no more.

    Keeping track of all these differences requires one to be somewhat of a centopede.

    Just my two centos worth.


  • Short answer: pick short(er) hymns.

    Longer, more involved answer:

    Print a weekly order of service so you don't have to announce your hymns. Announcing hymns, imploring people to "please join in singing along with me, an under-trained, overly-amplified amateur"...I wonder which percentage of the faithful assembled actually responds to this cry to heaven with anything audible or musical.

    Don't call it a "Recessional Hymn." We call ours a HYMN OF PRAISE, or for evening Masses, an EVENING HYMN. Call it anything but a Recessional Hymn. Just seeing or hearing that that makes me reach for the car keys.

    PRINT shorter hymns in your order of worship, where you can dictate which verses get printed. We sang Ora labora this past weekend, and I omitted verses two and three. Here's what the reprint looked like. Of course, cross your t's and dot your eyes on copyright issues, so this is more easily done with music in the public domain.

    image
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Thanks for the terminology tip, Mark!
    Thanked by 1Mark Husey
  • So, then, Chuck -
    Are the broken-off remains of a cenotaph a centotaph?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    MJO. That may not be ex-Celsius, but you do get a Centograde ... of A, of course.

    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • My, it's is getting warm in here... maybe as much as 130 centograde?
    (Then, there was this millstone that broke, resulting in centofugal force.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I must confess, if a hymn is dull or I disapprove of it for some reason, or if the congregation / celebrant seems to be getting restless waiting for the hymn to finish, I have a habit of truncating. Naughty, I know. Tut, tut, tut. I suppose part of the reason is that with Entrance and Offertory hymns, unless the hymn is really special, I generally feel a bit uneasy holding up the liturgical action (in a way that I wouldn't if we were singing the propers).

    Where I get to chose the hymn, I generally avoid very long ones.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Is a cento the work of a centorian?

    Or are centoaurs just a centoctical myth?


    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Yes, I think that one could aver that centorians were responsible for centos. Also, though, centorians were the commanders of Roman military units which had suffered heavy losses.

    (It may also be that a centorian is a stentorian who has laryngitis [???].)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • When our priest begins his exit, that is the last verse (could be v. 1 or 3). Then we (my children and I as the "choir") sing the "Salve Regina" while the congregation exits and begins their chatter, elevated to shout above our singing. I would rather do away with a "Closing Hymn", as we call it, and just sing the "Salve Regina" followed by a brief organ postlude. But that's not within my perview.
  • henry
    Posts: 244
    Since music is the servant of the liturgy, I end the Entrance song when the priest arrives at his chair (unless it's a Trinitarian hymn), the Offertory song as he's washing his hands, the Communion song as he returns to the altar after distributing Communion, and the Recessional song after he has processed out.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I agree with Mark's advice to sing shorter hymns. I make an effort to select short hymns for the hymn after the dismissal, for example, keeping in mind that most people are happy not to have to sit around singing at length.

    To cut a hymn short on the fly, to play a sort of reverse-musical-chairs, is a sin. Perhaps not a sin against God, but a sin against any reasonable standard of decorum and musicianship.

    And as CGZ mentioned, this whole problem is solved by using the proper antiphons, as EVERY Catholic parish must do.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • The opening question was particularly about "the closing hymn", so using proper antiphons is not option.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I have no problem with calling the last hymn a recessional hymn. It is a reversed direction procession as priest and servers leave the altar and process out. No one bolts for the door and the congregation stays and sings. Some have even complained when I have cut verses, although I don't stop until the priest passes under the loft to the main doors. We never announce hymns, btw. The numbers are posted on the hymn board.
  • I like the idea of the 'hymn of praise' but in our case I think I will be calling it the hymn to our Lady or some such.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • And as CGZ mentioned, this whole problem is solved by using the proper antiphons, as EVERY Catholic parish must do.


    And playing the organ or leaving the church in silence. Many are unaware that processing in and out is, except for a Sunday High Mass, a purely recent event.
    Thanked by 2kenstb CCooze
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    We sing the 11am Solemn Mass a capella from the choir loft most Sundays. I typically trek down to the organ to accompany a Recessional hymn at the end of Mass. This Sunday's Recessional hymn was to the tune JESU DULCIS MEMORIA. Though I accompanied it at the other Masses, we sang it a capella at the 11am Mass in its entirety. There was no postlude.

    I was shocked at how many people stayed and sang all 6 verses.
  • I don't tend to truncate recessional hymns.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Many are unaware that processing in and out is, except for a Sunday High Mass, a purely recent event.

    And some seem to be unaware that this "recent" event occurred years (!) before most folks who read this Forum were born.
  • Recession! A recession is an economic disaster. It is not a liturgical act. However, I fear that we are not going to get rid of that word in reference to 'going out' or 'departing' from mass. Liturgically speaking, there are processions, but no recessions. A recession is not the opposite of a procession. Processions are quite ancient and may involve a small or large number of personages making their way in a formal manner to an outdoor or indoor shrine, to 'stational' churches in the city of Rome or elsewhere, or to a stational altar or statue within a church or monastery. Processions generally include the singing of hymns, litanies, the recital of devotional material, or other communal acts. The point of a procession is that it begins somewhere and ends at a specific liturgically important place. Processions are not at all new-fangled inventions of the recent council. But, only in the loosest manner should the Entrance of the Sacred Ministers for mass be called a 'procession' - unless, of course, this Entrance (Introitus) is marked by an incidental 'side trip' to honour a stational altar or statue or shrine. So, what is the proper term for what we casually refer to as the 'recession'?
    I call it the dismissal hymn, as opposed to the entrance hymn. My habit, and that of some others, is as follows when printing service folders -

    AT THE ENTRANCE - Hymn 387 - - - - Lauda anima
    AT THE DISMISSAL - Hymn 528 - - - - St Denio

    Alas, though, although recessions don't exist, I doubt that we'll ever get rid of them.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    We could always use gathering and scattering instead.

    1. Gathering and scattering
    2. Coming and going
    3. Here and there
    4. Gallop and trot

    Or we could do like the British monarchy does on TV - wander around the church aimlessly and mindlessly. Take your pick.



  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    The British monarchy has nice hats in church.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    The hats are wonderful. Too bad the minds underneath may be absent. LOL.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    CW: If you use 1940, or use Anglican Use Rite I, 'Hither and Thither' might be more suitable.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I did consider hither and yon, but didn't list it. LOL.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I agree emphatically with Jackson about "Recession" - that is a matter of money, not liturgy! Although in discussing it with an Anglo-Catholic priest, he pointed out that one can talk about something "receding", such as a tide which recedes. I must say, I found that compelling, though the word still sounds odd to me - unless the processing people are walking backwards!

    My preferred terminology, when in Catholic parishes, is "Hymn after Mass". It says what it is.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    As a music director, I prefer to call it whatever they were calling it before I got there.

    As to the number of verses question:
    I don't think editing verses out is a bad practice, because you can think about which to sing and why. And then you can alert people in the program which verses we are singing. (My preference would be to print it in the program with only the verses we intend to sing.)

    I do think cutting it short on the fly all of the sudden is bad, and everytime I've done that I ended up remembering something like, "Oh, yeah - Verse 4 echoes the Epistle and was the whole reason I picked that hymn in the first place."
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • I don't see calling both opening and closing hymns "HYMN IN PROCESSION." You process in, you process out. Could not agree with MJO's comments more.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Gavin
  • And some seem to be unaware that this "recent" event occurred years (!) before most folks who read this Forum were born.


    Recent....in the years of the life of the Church.

    Much more recent than when an Introit became necessary.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    cutting it short on the fly all of the sudden


    There is no more clear way to communicate "what we are doing now is not at all important."