So...you've just hired a Protestant/agnostic music director...
  • ...for a Roman Catholic parish that is recovering (moving away from) 30 years of "worship as entertainment."

    What would they need to know in order to do a good job of providing quality, Catholic liturgical music?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Is this a real-life situation? Is the new MD asking you for tips? Or is this a speculative exercise for the sake of generating ideas?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Can they sight sing an offertory from the GR?
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    He should know when RCIA classes begin. :D
  • I'm not going to name the Cathedral that had the best music program I have ever seen led by a liberal Episcopalian, but it happened. So...

    My own view is that this person should go easy. Switch to better hymns. If there are drums anywhere, move them to the Sunday afternoon Mass. No blood on the floor. I have yet to find anyone who objects to really well done 16th Century motets, so look up my question about the easy ones and suggest that the person do those if they have four voices to work with.

    The Simple English Propers are there to be used, and can be a way to introduce the congregation to chanting the propers--the introit before the bell in many parishes. Maybe one thing at a time. Direct them to the Chabanel psalms and all the Psalm settings at Corpus Christi Watershed.

    I have a breakdown of what the GIRM requires if you send me your email.

    Those are my suggestions from a mix of experiences.

    Kenneth
  • I tried to paste my summary of the GIRM, but it was nearly 5000 characters too long...so, just send me your email and I will send it to you.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    The Protestant/agnostic music director will work seamlessly with the Modernist priest, the Democrat organist, the Socialist/agnostic CCD instructor, and the Buddhist Director of Religious Education. Anyone for some tea and having their chakras opened? Om.



  • Now, now. The liberal Episcopalian I am thinking if did a punctiliously correct job, beautifully. If the director in this question has indeed been hired, then he should be told what the rules are and let him use his skills to make it beautiful.

    But funny,, CharlesW
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • This is a real situation, and I have been asked to tell the pastor (who genuinely wants to improve things) what this new DM should read/experience/know/learn about/understand in order to do a good job at maintaining a Catholic ethos, etc.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    If the pastor GENUINELY wants to improve things, he will hire a Catholic who knows something about liturgy and sacred music.

    Thanked by 1Ben
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It's too late to cast blame about that, Adam.

    Here's a good place to start, pinkdressfrancine:

    CMAA's Twenty-four questions and answers about sacred music
    http://musicasacra.com/about-cmaa/faq/
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen marajoy
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    I think I can see the Catholic (I almost said byzantine) twist to the Music Director's problem: who has Father's ear? Is pdF someone from the interviewing committee? From the choir?

    I think Noel is clearing his throat...
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    The relevant V2 Documents, the GIRM, how to read chant, a cue sheet for where things happen, the professionalism to keep his non-Catholic opinions to himself, a willingness to pick up the culture, membership in CMAA :-)

    The nice thing about not being Catholic? He can plead ignorance. "You don't sing chant? The ANGLICAN Catholics do. Let me ask Father about that." And presumably Father wants an omelet, whether the eggs do or not.
  • When preparing for the position I thought I'd be in, and am now (a volunteer trying to improve things), I found a total immersion idea quite daunting, and people snippy rather than helpful. (Well, you SHOULD know this already. I mean, it's basic.) Let me point out that I have read Latin since I was a teenager, and routinely immerse myself in nice, dense theological discussions. The problem is, "What first?" (Heavens, 15 years ago, I could not find a simple explanation of how to read square notes except for a line in the Introduction to the Liber Usualis.)

    So let me repeat my first suggestion: start with the GIRM, the Simple English Propers, and better hymns. Choral pieces as possible. Nothing too wrenching to begin with, and hopefully some pastoral teaching to help people understand.

    Just Pastoral teaching on the purpose of the Propers. I attended one NPM national meeting, because it was next to my house Two ladies who just did what they could with as good an attitude as they could muster had gone to a panel on the Propers and come out bewildered. They happened to ask me, and I knew, so we talked for a few minutes. (For one thing, chanting the Communion Proper solves the problem of people standing in line and so not being able to read whatever song they are supposed to sing. Do the Communion Proper until a good number of people are seated. Then they can start sining. I've had liberals say that was a helpful suggestion.)And, of course, guidance from the Pastor at every step.

    Pastoral and Catholic--meaning you want everyone to be blessed and to stay. I have a friend who only occasionally dips a toe in here, but he has the experience, so I will ask him to post something.

    Kenneth


  • It was just phlegm. And sometimes a PDF is just a PDF.

    All the suggestions are way overkill, and if thrown at the new girl/guy, would be tremendously intimidating. This new person needs to take over and do the Mass just as it was before he/she arrived, begin visiting a forum, hopefully this one, getting an idea of what might be possible and then, start making improvements that she/he feels are necessary.

    Some eminent non-Catholics belong to this forum and they have not been abused.
  • Reval
    Posts: 186
    Just a thought, this person might do better than a Catholic who has been soaking in the usual VII spirit for the past 40 years. This person might not have a sentimental attachment to the questionable things that have been happening in the average Catholic parish.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Good grief... Where is the actual helpful advice?! Let's be real...like a couple people have mentioned, this person is probably a better candidate than 99% of Catholics who might apply for the same job!
  • Francine, I skimmed other comments so forgive me if these two basic training areas have been mentioned:
    1) ask the pastor to send the new director to a CMAA chant intensive and colloquium. If the new director is not used to chant or acapella music, which factor large in Catholic music, it may be especially helpful to learn it from the inside, and in a faithful Catholic environment.
    2) a lot depends on the musicianship of the director and what s/he is capable of providing or delegating well, but reading documents with the guidance of the pastor is good. (Then there is the difficulty of what the documents say and what standard practice is... but the pastor can help steer the director and answer questions.)

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    [I have split a bunch of off-topic comments off to form their own thread. --admin]
  • I think, Noel, it'a overkill if you do it at once, but the person was hired to make
    Better music and needs to start fairly soon, And have a direction.So let me just pare it down to GIRM, GIRM, and more GIRM.

    And yes , don't start making rash decisions. Apparently there's some bitterness at the parish where I now volunteer over peremptory changes.

    Kenneth
  • I know that many devout protestants who were "somewhat traditional" have been some of the best music directors of catholic churches in recent years. I'm speaking specifically of the more liturgical protestant denominations the lutherans, anglicans moravians - not unitarian/bishop spong episcopalians.

    In that sense being protestant or catholic does not necessarily make a drastic difference. If the protestant respects authentic catholic music, thats what matters, and in many cases they do.

    In the average parish each piece of music you use that is more beautiful goes a long way in improving things. Yes indeed, do what can be done. Using a communion antiphon and "holy, holy, holy" that come from historically influenced models, gregorian or not is a huge impact. Simply having those two pieces improved goes a long way in making an impact.

    I know this first hand because thats the extent of impact I was having before the pastor decided that music program at the parish had become 'too traditional' and I was told to go away. (Afterwards they canceled the mass at that time of day too - it was a regular novus ordo mass in english). If you can't even get that far, it really is hopeless, but the particular parish I volunteered to help at in 2012 was a worst case scenario. Whereas, in the nearby diocese a few miles down the road - the music directors were already doing what I helped achieve and are going strong with it to this very day.

    Each diocese has a different level what is seen as acceptable in liturgy. Some are deadset against authentic catholic church music, others will embrace it significantly. What is normal in one diocese may be abnormal in another. That has been one of the most surprising discoveries I made over the last four years.
  • Reading Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI's writings on music, liturgy and the character of sacred music will be very helpful for a protestant working in a catholic church. The coherence and logic found in his writings overcome any personal taste or preference. They are also instructive and enlightening and, if chaos reigns in his new job, it will bring invaluable perspective.