I prefer hats over veils any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

If you want to know why this Catholic traddie lady wouldn't be caught dead wearing a veil (or hijab), it can all be traced back to the day I was told to wear a paper towel on my head since I had forgotten to bring a veil . . .

I admit some ladies do look lovely in veils, but I've found that it's usually the sweet ladies who look best in them. Battle axes should wear hats with pins in them. : )

You've just got to admire these fine ladies in their hats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbA8prdCKOc&feature=kp

That was for the Diamond Jubilee service in June 2012. An exceptional occasion, just for context.

Stimson, thanks for the long reply.
All things considered, I think girls and women should be trained. With respect for your understanding about the wishes of St. Pius X, there has been much written about what he meant regarding women singing propers. I hope you are familiar with arguments counter to your opinion, honestly I'm too tired to rehash them again.

Let me be clear: I think you are making a big mistake in not allowing women to sing propers.

And here's why: (Ben, if you're still reading... I sincerely hope you would allow women to sing alongside you.)

Perhaps the greatest reason I've witnessed to allow girls and women to study and sing the propers is the spiritual benefits girls and women derive from their labors.

Men's opinions have real effects in this area. I've trained young women who prepare their prayers thoroughly, take delight in them, can learn a tough offertory in 20-30 min, and recall their favorite and most spiritually nourishing propers on a dime. Singing the liturgical prayers is an integral part of their spiritual lives. Then they move or go to college, and (so far only OF situations, oddly) the man in charge of the men's schola does not wish to have women in the club. The young women report that they are heartbroken, and greatly miss that part of their spiritual lives. I encourage them to resist any bitterness and chant the propers alone, during a holy hour or such, or to form scholas if they are allowed.

I would most ardently urge all to weigh the spiritual lives of girls and young women in the balance, when the prudential decision is left to us musicians.

And to put the obvious questions out there again:
What harm does it do to allow girls and women to sing propers? What good does it do?

Let us weigh not merely according to our own tastes and opinions, Stimson, Mark, etc. There are more people concerned than you, and their spiritual lives matter. Patiently, and persistently I ask you: do not begrudge them, do not dismiss them. I have a clear conscience in this matter, and only press into this tiresome area (where I'd hope more male colleagues would weigh in) because I've known the sadness involved in not allowing women to sing propers. I think it is wrong, and entirely avoidable for the faithful Catholic.

Another report from "on the ground" - we have had a mixed schola from the very beginning (2007). We have about two-thirds women and one-third men. Practically speaking, there is no way we could do the Propers without the women.

But as MACW said, the idea that some of the women will take this idea and run with it into other areas, such as the priesthood, is laughable in the extreme. Most of them are homeschooling moms, and I have NEVER met people who, as a group, are so dedicated and faithful to the Church and the Magisterium as they are.

I should mention also that our community has had a Missa Cantata every Sunday from the very beginning; the Low Mass is something that only happens on First Saturdays and Holydays of Obligation when it is not possible (usually because of servers) to put a High Mass together. I think partly for this reason, we bypassed the "bitter trads who only want the Low Mass with hymns" situation. No one in our community is looking backward; less than 10% even were alive to remember. The Extraordinary Form is all its glory is their reality.

Jahaza, there are eastern places where the babushkas would take canes to you if heads were not covered. Babushkas are ferocious animals. LOL. Other eastern churches don't seem to care. I think the U.S. Latins pretty much ignored that 1917 canon.

I knew it. To arms! SSPXrs at the gate!

Under what document were veils required?

You will note that Julie is denying nothing...

It grieves me to also report that Dr. Jenny Donelson broke away from PPFTT to begin an even more radical group-
DDOH (Dames with Doctorates Organizing Histrionics).

Their meetings are secret, but the source of their waywardness is clear. They started chanting Gregorian propers, and now are organizing flamboyant organ demonstrations against the Church. A favorite tactic is to plug organ pipes with tattered, unusable old mantillas. Some of them... corduroy. Such is their DESPERATION to change Church teaching as regards the all male priesthood.
It's a tale as ridiculous as it is sad...

Jenny, turn back now!

Ben, Jeffrey Morse makes a good case for training girls and women in chant. You'd want to her His Eloquence talk about it.

Basically, he feels (like Mary Berry did) that in order to restore the chant we need to have a missionary approach about teaching it to all interested.

Yeah, he says it better.

Definitely ask Jeffrey Morse about this: he has had dealt with this before.

As Dr. Berry said: "Plainchant is for Everyone". [emphasis mine]

Julie, I am begging you not to leap over the altar rails. Is there any way that we can talk you down???

On this subject, I agree with MaryAnn. There is much to be gained by allowing girls to chant the propers, especially since we as a church are in such desperate need of vocations to the religious life. I think that all of us benefit spiritually from serving in the ministry of music, and I have met far too many talented and devout women to consider it a good thing to exclude them from singing the praises of the Lord. One of the earliest catholic composers was St. Hildegard of Bingen. One of the earliest catholic writers was St. Perpetua. Sacred music is sung prayer. Everyone can pray. Everyone should be welcome. While each of us may have a preference, since it is not currently forbidden, why should we turn a blind eye to the resources that God has made available to us? This isn't about the priesthood. That ship sailed long ago. This is about singing.

What's not to like about this mixed schola at St. Ignatius of Antioch Episcopal in NYC

Regardless of what they call themselves, it could be just as easily described as two scholas - one women's and one men's, who sing together in part and separately in part, each of which is located together.

I would add, should anyone wish to share the above video, that the female Episcopal priest or deacon who chants the Gospel immediately following the Tract does nothing to make the case for the Catholicity of the practice. Let's look for better example videos of male/female scholas in "alternatim" (e.g., double monasteries) to share with parishioners who question the beauty and orthodoxy of the practice.

"what dude would be caught dead singing "Bring Flowers to the Rarest"? "
Me. But it goes better with whiskey.

I'm with MACW and Morse about getting women chanting. Catholics need to own this music. If that means that someday somebody idly starts humming de Angelis, is recognized as a Catholic and is martyred, oh well. But women have to sing it, in order to sing it to their children. And if they're singing it from the choir loft, I have no issue.

Up front is a little different. I don't really have a cootie there either. But it seems that in Catholic culture, there is a PREFERENCE for female cantors. I don't know why, and most of the answers that I come up with don't reflect well on the Church. Part of it might just be that there are more trained female voices around than male voices.

Women may chant the Ordinaries and sing hymns or motets.
We have one man who chants the Propers. When he is unavailable, a Low Mass is done.
The choir consists of one man and several women. They do very well with this arrangement, thank you.

Definitely, can't have a sung Mass if WOMEN are going to be singing! Shut it down. Low Mass today, Bill has a cold. There might be touchy-feely music and old men will be watching for all the wrong reasons!

I personally don't like singing women without men that much because I find it sometimes very difficult to understand the text with high female singing voices (hadn't I known the responsorial psalm on this First Sunday of Lent to be Ps 50 (51), I would have hardly understood any verse from the soprano cantrix at the organ right above me).

Given the scarcity of chant at all I am totally OK with female scholae, but if given the choice I would prefer the male schola for personal aesthetical reasons.

"The Church in the U.S. has largely resolved the problem of which sex sings the Propers. Neither. " Well, THAT puts this conversation into perspective!
"In the particular EF parish I attend, only one man can be found." That's highly unusual. I my experience, OF choirs tend to be female-heavy, and EF choirs tend to have more men than women.

So there you have it. SSPX France with their mixed schola singing the G.R. Propers. I am not a member of SSPX, obviously, but I would really love for someone to try to make the argument that they are somehow going against the heart and mind of the Church in doing this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt8eNriDruU

Maybe it's time for some to realize that the traditional movement in France is incredibly strong and vigorous, and maybe one of the reasons for its strength is that it doesn't exclude half the population or more in singing the Church's liturgical music.

Finally, one last question: if you want the Gregorian chant movement to grow, do you think it's a good idea to artificially attempt to exclude half the human race when everyone knows the Church has already made it clear long ago that women are allowed to sing the Propers? If that isn't shooting yourself in the foot, I don't know what is.

One last anecdote: a very good friend of mine recently moved to another state so he and his family could live near a traditional parish. They had a choice of several traditional parishes, and they all agreed that it was far better to live near the one parish that allowed women to sing in the schola since he has two daughters who love to sing chant. Just something to think about.

P.S. If you go about halfway through the video you can see an impressive young lady learning to direct the schola.

Forgive me, Stimson, if I tend to get on my soapbox on this issue. I think your assessment of the legislation is actually quite fair. It's just that from my own personal experience and having heard the experience of other women, I find it appalling in this day and age of in-your-face feminism to know of situations where women who want to sing the propers and are competent to sing them are denied the opportunity.

To make matters worse I know of situations where women are shut out of a schola while men are allowed to sing the propers who aren't even Catholic. How is that supposed to make the women feel?

Let me tell you because I've heard what they have to say----for those women who have the desire and ability to sing the Graduale Romanum---it hurts and makes them feel like second class Catholics, and where might that kind of smoldering resentment lead someday?

That is why I am so adamant that women be given opportunities to sing the propers. That doesn't mean women have to sing in the same schola as the men, as you say, but it's worth considering whether there is some way to make a place for them since the Church allows the practice.

I have no problem with women singing, as I have noted in earlier posts. SSPX is more than an attachment to a particular rite. That is there, to be sure, but the body is somewhat political, as well. Ultra-conservatives and monarchists, so I am told, are major supporters of SSPX. There is more to them than meets the eye.

Since I brought up the SSPX on this thread, let me hasten to assure you, Charles, of the following:

OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER: I am not a member of SSPX. I repeat, I am not a member of the SSPX. I repeat again, I am not a member of the SSPX, nor have I ever been, nor do I have any intention of joining them. Besides, why should I? Pope Benedict made it clear that we are perfectly free to hold fast to Catholic tradition inside the Church.

However, since I'm an EF musician, for historical, aesthetical, cultural, musical, and liturgical reasons I like to study the liturgical praxis of the French wing of the SSPX, since it represents a living tradition. As far as I can tell, their style of worship predates the Vatican Council II and is perfectly in accord with the preconciliar liturgical documents.

In fact, it is also perfectly in accord with the liturgical documents of the Second Vatican Council which made clear that a) all lawful rites are to be preserved, b) Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place, c) the Church's treasury of sacred music, i.e., polyphony, is to fostered and preserved in every way, and d) the faithful are to be taught to say and/or sing in Latin those parts of the Mass that pertain to them.

Now I'm not trying to be cheeky or anything, but I think I'm on fairly solid ground as stating that as regards this specific area, i.e., carrying out Vatican II's document on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, SSPX France is doing an admirable job.

Lest anyone think it is uncatholic to applaud our SSPX friends when they are doing something well, and lest one disparage this Catholic's quest, in the true spirit of ecumenism, to find and appropriate the good, true, beautiful, and holy wherever it may exist, I would point him/her to the words of Pope St. John Paul II in Crossing the Threshold of Hop:

Pope John XXIII, who was moved by God to summon the Council, used to say: “What separates us as believers in Christ is much less than what unites us.” In this statement we find the heart of ecumenical thinking...we need to be more united, more willing to advance along the path toward the unity for which Christ prayed on the eve of His Passion. This unity is enormously precious. In a certain sense, the future of the world is at stake.

I am convinced of "good" Pope John XXIII as far as his goodness goes. But I also think he was a naïve old man who started something he couldn't control and didn't live to finish.

I don't have problems with SSPX and was just noting that the organization is about more than liturgy. Some don't seem to realize that. The ultra-right group in France is growing and they seem to have had quite enough of the status quo. I think we will hear more from them in the future.

I don't give any attention to Buddhists, Muslims and Confucianists. I don't know any.

"The gods of the heathen are demons" (Ps 95(96):5).

You! Cheeky? Heaven forbid!!! LOL

I think it's great when people apply common sense when reading authoritative documents.

It is most relevant to remember that in ancient times women were not educated as they are now. Because of this, what would have been an effective model then is not the effective model in parish life today, unless one wishes to needlessly alienate or exclude half of the parish.

I'm sure women were not trained as organists in ancient times, either. Should we bar them from the bench now, in an attempt to be faithful to a perceived model? Truly, why allow women at all?