Spanish and Latin Masses - They are ready for Primetime
  • It is discrimination to offer Latin and Spanish and Vietnamese and Korean Masses not on Sunday morning, instead forcing them to the less desirable hours in the afternoon.

    This makes these communities in second place in the eyes of the community and the world that is watching.

    For people who want to attend Mass on Sunday morning, the only real issue is not understanding the language of the Sermon, which should be short and concise anyhow. It's still the Mass, you are going to know when to go forward for common.

    "Well," they wine, "but we cannot fully participate...."

    Imagine the joy of those comfortable in their homeland languages when greeted with the opportunity to attend Mass on Sunday morning, as they did where they grew up.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,815
    I'm not sure what you're driving at, Noel. Should the 11:00 Mass then be celebrated in Korean and the Anglophiles told to suck it up, or are you rather suggesting that anyone who prefers their mother tongue to Latin is a whiner?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    Why don't we English speakers just stay home, turn over our buildings to oompa loompas, and let them sacrifice goats on the altar. I know of no other place in the world where a group can make unreasonable demands and be humored and catered to. I find that some of the most whiny, entitled and demanding are the ones who have no legal status to be here in the first place. Political correctness is going to be the death of us all. Or am I misunderstanding your intent, Noel?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Mass in Latin solves the "which vernacular language group gets the 'prime time'?" question. Quite seriously.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I agree, although you could make a case that mass in Latin is a great equalizer - no one understands a thing. LOL. Sad, but true in many places. Gone are all the courses in Catholic schools that used to teach the Latin mass.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Charles,

    I would disagree that people don't understand what's going on. Try this example: an average group of Catholics attends a conference hosted by the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, and the same group of Catholics then attends a Solemn High Mass, according to the Extraordinary form.

    In the first case, everyone understands the language being spoken, because it is the vernacular of the participants and the presenters, but few understand the words. Fewer still have any doubt as to what is going on.

    In the second case, few understand the language being sung but no one has the slightest confusion that this ceremony is the worship of God.

    Or, if you prefer, take the painting Guernica and the song On Eagle's Wings, or, if you prefer, Here I am, Lord, or Be not Afraid In the case of the painting, only a small group probably speak Spanish, still fewer have studied art history and an even smaller group are specialists in Spanish art. Nevertheless, the drama of the painting is quite clear to those who take even a few minutes to absorb the painting. In the case of the music, nearly everyone in the group understands the language of the songs, everyone has an opinion on music (learned or not) and most people have heard of the composers who penned the stuff, but a tiny group see the danger which these pieces represent to the faith, and a similarly small number actually sing what's on the page.

    Which "understands"?
  • Anglophiles told to suck it up


    Why....yes! If they are not happy, then they need to ask Father to celebrate Mass at 3:00 Sunday afternoon for them...just as the Spanish and Latin preferring people have to do now.

    The Mass is the Mass in any language. Any complaints about people not being able to fully participate because of a language barrier is wrong. Has the church in the USA become a country club of exclusivity for WASC's?


  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I disagree, sort of. At the Latin mass ordinary people would understand something holy and resembling worship is going on, and at the LCWR that a bunch of goofy old ladies from the sixties and seventies are ranting about something again. Most congregations, in my experience in the South, simply do not have much of an understanding of Latin. They could be taught, but haven't been.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I think we have turned our Country into the town of Babel.
    No one understands what anyone else is saying anymore.
    What happened to One Body in Christ.
    When parts of the Body do not function together they are said to be diseased.

    We need to get back to being together as One. We shouldn't have a different language or different Masses.

    With that said we live in a Country that is a melting pot of individuals from other cultures.
    I am not saying we should all speak English but we should all be able to communicate.
    So we should have one Mass whether that be in English, Spanish, Latin or ?

    Its not a perfect World and there are no easy answers but I don't see "discrimination" (racism really is what you are saying, aren't you?) in what time Mass is available.

    In our area the Mexican community has actually requested the 12:30pm slot.
    In other communities I know of, there are earlier Spanish Masses.
    One community has 7 Masses, 4 in Spanish and 3 in English. I think the community is fine with when their Masses are.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,092
    I think that in many cases, it isn't an issue of language per se, but of ethnicity. We had this in Latin Mass days too. The first bishop of the D. of Cleveland refused to set up separate churches for the Germans, who then raised enough of a stink with the Vatican that he had to give in. (He also gave the Irish churches French-speaking priests.) The Germans and Irish fought until 1903, when they finally encountered a bishop who would bang heads together.
  • A Bohemian parish was assigned an Italian priest back then and complained - Bishop would not back down, so they walked out of Mass one morning, marched down Broadway in Cleveland and entered and joined Broadway United Methodist...which explained the great food after my dedication recital on the organ there years ago. This was one of those churches where we were able to convince them to mothball there old pipe organ, not rip it out, but preserve it for the future when funds might be able to restore it to its original grandeur.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    The Mass is NOT about what the people understand, but how God designed his Church to worship him through tradition. Even VII says so in her docs.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    The significant Vietnamese congregation in my city petitioned the bishop for their own parish. He helped provide a building and they obtained a Vietnamese priest. They wanted to preserve their culture, but the important distinction is that they were willing to pay for it with their own funds. They are lovely people, btw, but asked for no handouts or special privileges paid for by others.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I refer everyone to Kathy Pluth's recent article at the Chant Cafe in which she quite succinctly declares the obvious, that English is the lingua franca of this era in history. I concur. This is not said to infer that has any bearing on Noel's contention nor relate this "reality" is akin to the institution of the lingua franca of post-Constantinian Rome as the lingua sacra that we've inherited. The dead Latin could be said to have risen from the dead as the resurrected sacral language.
    However, what's on the table is essentially a political concern in a country whose primary vernacular is, in point of fact, English. As sympathetic to the contemporary waves of new ethnicities entering this country's social fabric and our churches we may be, we are not doing them any favor by being so hospitable through segregating them from the de facto mother tongue of the country. I say this regardless of past practice among European immigrant conflicts mentioned above. And to complete the analogy, the American melting pot is not so much that good stew any longer, it is a gazpacho of distinctly different constituents who happen to share the soup base but do not conjoin at the point of serving and consuming.
    But we are now a people of convenience, of capitulation to authority, of political correctness. We are inclined to those behaviors in all our interpersonal, communal experiences sacred and secular. But the Church could, if She* accepted the true sensus fidelium, and chose to celebrate Her most sacred rites in the sacral language, or if the vernacular in this country, only English. That opinion does not make me a bigot or racist, just a realist.
    *That would be our bishops, FYI, IMO.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Chrism
    Posts: 873
    I think it's nice to have an American church in Rome. I also like finding English Mass & Confession and community in other countries - it's refreshing when you're an expat.