Solemnity of Sts Peter and Paul, June 29th
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    The GIRM is pretty clear on this. "Unity of their voices." Congregational singing is preferred.

    Doesn't mean one can't do choral-only music. Just means it isn't preferred.

    If you think you know better than the authors of the GIRM, just say so. (Personally, I prefer to ignore the GIRM on this point) But let's not pretend the GIRM endorses a model of music at Communion which excludes the congregation.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I don't disagree, Gavin. I just don't see the point in giving them a hymn at a time when they are not going to sing it. I like the communion antiphon/verse idea with choir or cantor, then starting the hymn near the end of communion.
  • Gavin - I don't have to pretend...
    GIRM 87 explicitly states that the choir may sing the chant alone. The real question is whether the authors of the GIRM knew better than themselves. Why juxtapose a seeming contradiction like this? I see it as describing legitimate variety in musical practice, rather than excluding the choir and then "accidentally" allowing it to sing alone in the very next paragraph.
    Thanked by 2G BruceL
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Okay, perhaps my humour meter is broken, but Kathy, tell me your "Sing All The Things" meme was intended ironically?

    "This is sung either by the choir alone, or...."
    Choir alone is the first choice, the GIRM seems pretty muddy on this.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The GIRM is pretty clear on this. "Unity of their voices." Congregational singing is preferred.

    It is crystal clear in point of fact. Unfortuntely and despite anecdotal accounts positive or negative, that particular catechesis remains stuck between being a lacunae or shibboleth, particularly in the minds of many celebrants. These same fellows trumpet the principle fail to ever address that very point from the ambo, or otherwise insist or cajole their flock to "get" into the preferred habit. They're often the same clerics who suppress the singing of the Pater Noster out of concern for the one person out there who "can't" sing it.
    Try to avoid responding to my observation as unreasonable, I've experienced far too many autocrats who insist upon the former point with little success, and impose the latter despite the whole-throated singing of the Our Father when it does occur.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Admin: please break the singing at communion question to another thread. It's just too tempting!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    With different "emphasis added" to point out that the GIRM does not speak in these items about a hymn being sung during communion; on the contrary, it only addresses a hymn being sung after Communion. Nowhere does it equate Communion chant with hymn after Communion:
    86. While the priest is receiving the Sacrament, the Communion chant is begun. Its purpose is to express the communicants’ union in spirit by means of the unity of their voices, to show joy of heart, and to highlight more clearly the “communitarian” nature of the procession to receive Communion. The singing is continued for as long as the Sacrament is being administered to the faithful. If, however, there is to be a hymn after Communion, the Communion chant should be ended in a timely manner.

    It seems that ending the Communion chant in a timely matter simply means not to drag it out beyond the administration of Communion, but it does not mean that one ends the chant early so as to start a congregational hymn while Communion is still being administered.
    87. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Communion chant:

    (1) the antiphon from The Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting;
    (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual;
    (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms;
    (4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86.

    This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.

    88. When the distribution of Communion is finished, as circumstances suggest, the priest and faithful spend some time praying privately. If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the entire congregation.

    Item 88 only refers to what happens when distribution of Communion is finished.

    Just read what's there and don't bend it to your own wishes.
    Thanked by 1donr
  • My understanding is the same as yours, CHG.
    If you read the GIRM it's a fairly clear both/ and situation, as you outline above.
    Because of this, Fr. Krisman's objection was a non-starter to me.

    That objection might be traced to the low mass/hymn sandwich/over zealous and exclusionary interpretation of actual participation during the sung liturgy.
    Thanked by 2Ben CHGiffen
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    You are exactly right Charles...
    We do the communion chant until the communion procession is over, then during the cleaning of the vessels we sing a hymn of thanksgiving or praise. Then silence.

    The only alteration to this is when the Communion Chant and its verses is finished before the procession is complete. Then we start the hymn early and sing the Marian Antiphon of the Season as a meditative piece while the vessels are cleansed.

    Regardless, we always provide sacred silence for at least a couple of minutes.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Sacred silence is good and often gets neglected. I always try to leave a few minutes for it.
  • Saint Edward, Newark, CA Solemnity of Saints Peter & Paul: 10:00 AM Missa Cantata
    Full Gregorian Proper; Palestrina "Missa: Tu es Petrus" (Kyrie, Gloria, Agnus Dei III) with Mass IV Sanctus & Agnus Dei I & II; Offertory Motet: "Constitues eos" a 5 ... Palestrina; Communion Motet: "Tu es Petrus" .... Palestrina. Closing Hymn to the Blessed Virgin: "Salve Regina" ... Solemn Tone
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Thread should be renamed,

    "How Catholic musicians learned to love the tension in the liturgical documents."
    Thanked by 2expeditus1 G
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    We have the Mass of Thanksgiving for our Cathedral's newly ordained priest who plans to chant the entire Mass (including the Roman Canon).


    I don't know whether this is a real omission, but I would have liked to see the Our Father among the sung parts of Mass on Matthew's fine program.


    Is the concept of "chant the entire Mass" foreign to folks?

    Of course the Our Father will be sung.

    In fact, I can't recall a Sunday Mass at any church, since moving to Phoenix, that has not had the Our Father sung.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    At my church, the Our Father is almost always sung to the AECL Chant Tone. Just about every Catholic in Australia for the past 70 years knows this.

    We really should take this discussion into another thread though.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Let's get back to the main topic, shall we?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    St. Theresa Church, Trumbull, CT
    Solemn High Mass in the Extraordinary Form, 2:30 pm (first in the parish since the 1960s)

    Prelude: "Tu es Petrus" from Twelve Choral-Preludes on Gregorian Chant Themes, op. 8 - Jeanne Demessieux (1921-68)
    Gregorian mass: Nunc scio vere
    Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus: Missa Tu Es Petrus a 6 - Palestrina
    Gloria VIII
    Credo III
    Offertory motet: Exsultate Deo - A. Scarlatti
    Communion motet: Tu es Petrus - Durufle
    After communion: Adoro Te Devote - chant
    Postlude: Toccata and Fugue in F, BuxWV 157 - Buxtehude