Father can wait. It is not all about him, although some priests think it is. If time is a factor, the sermon is usually the longest item in the mass. Cutting some off that would be the greatest time saver. I took the stopwatch with me one Sunday, and "music time" was nowhere near as lengthy as "talk time." As a courtesy, I do inform the priest that the offertory music will run "x" number of minutes, so he can adjust to that. No one likes last minute surprises, and the priests have been appreciative when informed.

... and I would never split up the Hail Mary, just like I wouldn't split up any other prayer.

In the EF the priest waits for the music

Yes, music that is part of the Mass - not the propers. Nor should he have to at an OF Mass either.

And about the Schubert Ave Maria- I have no problem singing only one verse, as that particular prayer was traditionally shorter, stopping at "Jesus".

Specifically refering to the ave maria, there is also an antiphon with the text "Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus. Alleluia," so I would have no problem in that instance cutting it short, based on the precedence of a shorter version being used liturgically.

It was Schubert's Ave Maria, so

1) As a super-well-known piece, it will be missed (and commented on) if truncated.
2) (channeling a Conservatory prank) I would encourage the singing of it with all stops pushed firmly in, and the soloist encouraged to sing through a bandana.

The problems of this thread could be solved if two things happened: 1) pieces were picked with more inind than simply enjoying a piece and 2) picking propers, which can be extended or stopped with verses.

I have to, as resident curmudgeon, ask a few queries.
Does anyone herein believe that the "Ave Maria" was crafted from a whole cloth?
"Hail, full of grace....." Luke 1
"Holy Mary, mother of God...." not clearly defined for centuries later.
My intention is not to debate this traditional prayer. But it is an amalgam. As are many prayers we have codified.
Passed that now. We had a bride who so wanted to process to "Ave Maria (Schubert)" But her procession would only bear the action through the first half. She venerated the BVM after Communion to the second half. Houston, do we have a problem?
Many here may not know that "In Paradisum" and "Chorus Angelli" are two distinctly unique hymns-prayers attached to the final commendation. But those of us fortunate to be enabled to chant them either as the culmination of the commendation or as the "hymn" after the dismissal, would we ever conceive of rendering them separately? No, it's customary.
Now, reconsider the conception of the AM. I, in both citations believe they need to remain integral. But I, I, am not reality.

The priest usually incenses the altar which makes more time available for music.

Singing Schubert's or anyone else's Ave Maria as an offertory at any mass is totally out of place. We are not to offer prayers or supplications to any other than God during the mass. We have had this discussion before. Yes, 'Ave Maria' is the biblical text for the offertory at several Marian feasts. But this is not exactly as a prayer: it is, as are most of the propers, a quotation from scripture that supports the day's theme or doctrine. Art song versions of this text are never appropriate during any mass. They are not really liturgical music at all. That said, if one is going to sing something, then sing all of it or none of it.

The propers are part of the mass, and the priest may have to wait for them, though usually doesn't have to.

The propers - in the GIRM it instructs that music is not to hold up the mass, which is why propers are sung with additional verses to extend the music for the length of the procession, another reason why propers are preferable to hymns, which cannot easily be stopped in mid-verse when the celebrant and Mass are ready to proceed. But you knew that.

The propers are short. The verses extend them.

Let's look at it this way. Would one consider saying only one-half of the Our Father or the Nicene Creed? Better yet, how about one-half of the Star Spangled Banner? What message is being given to those sitting in the pews about the importance of the music at Mass? If it is there only to fill in the dead spaces, get the priest to the altar at the beginning or cover the action during the presentation and preparation of the gifts until the priest has completed washing his hands, how can we expect the congregation then to put a lot of effort and enthusiasm into singing?
In my new position as organist for St. John the Baptist Church of Winslow, Maine, I have made a conscious decision to instruct the cantors that we will sing all of the verses of every hymn with the exception of the closing song, for obvious reasons. Once the priest has left the altar it is futile to continue singing when the people start to leave the church in droves or begin talking very loudly. I have even gone one step further by playing the entire hymn all the way through as an introduction, again, except when there is a decided separation between verse and refrain. In such cases, a play through of the refrain will suffice.
I could not do any of this without the support of the clergy who share, for the most part, my vision on the role of music within Catholic liturgy. It is high time that we bring the Church into the 21st century and make a strong statement about the value of music within the liturgy. After all, are we not just simply bringing the Church into line with the mainstream Protestant sector, where this is the norm?

Singing Schubert's or anyone else's Ave Maria as an offertory at any mass is totally out of place. We are not to offer prayers or supplications to any other than God during the mass. We have had this discussion before. Yes, 'Ave Maria' is the biblical text for the offertory at several Marian feasts. But this is not exactly as a prayer: it is, as are most of the propers, a quotation from scripture that supports the day's theme or doctrine.

Sorry, but this post is all over the place. First, you say that the text of the Ave is always out of place liturgically at the offertory because it's nature is contrary to the offertory.

Then you acknowledge that it's the primary text preferred by the church for some occasions.

I'm confused.

A lot of unnecessary mental gymnastics going on here. For example, honestly, MJO, in what sense is the Ave Maria not a prayer? In what sense is any portion of scripture used in the proper texts not a prayer? If we are not singing prayers, then what- we're singing statements that aren't also prayers but that jive with the supposed theme of the day? I don't see where you'd get that idea.

There is no shame and no harm with singing one verse of the Latin adaptation of Schubert's piece if time considerations are involved. There are enough headaches as a church musician. Let's not pile them higher.

Chonak asks a good question. Who fit Schubert's German art song with a Latin prayer? I'm curious...

As to your last question, Chonak, YES! (Forgive the all caps but I admit to raising my voice on this one.)

Don't be confused Ben, I believe he was referring to the 'Ave Maria' being sung during other times than what is called for. Obviously there are times when the text is appropriate to the celebration on that day.

That's not what he said though. He tried to make the argument that the text of the Ave Maria was inappropriate during the offertory rite itself at (and I quote:) "any" Mass.

Well, I'm not presenting the objection as my personal view.

In any case, using just the first half lets us treat the piece as a meditation on the Annunciation, including the role of the Holy Spirit and of St. Gabriel. In contrast, the whole Ave Maria would come across more narrowly as a petition from us (and therefore not properly liturgical).

The Schubert "Ave" is what I call diva Viagra. They love it and so do most of the people. Unfortunately, all those divas don't know it quite as well as they think. I played a memorial mass for a "pillar of the parish" lady where the granddaughter insisted on singing the Schubert. The problem was that she knew only the first verse, so she sang it twice.

Those divas have problems with the key about half the time. "Can you transpose it?" seems the constant cry. When I feel particularly wicked, I modulate around on the keyboard - at practice, of course - then come back to the printed score key. Most of them can't tell the difference and can sing it where it is written.

There is a book available with the Schubert and the Malotte Lord's Prayer in numerous keys. Not a bad thing to have for funerals and weddings where many of the requests for both seem to most often appear.

A lot of unnecessary mental gymnastics going on here.

Precisely, MACW. Very few of us actually visit each other "in action," so I don't see the point of Monday morning quarterbacking. It's obvious that the choice to employ the Schubert within the Mass is heavily weighted by "conventional Catholicism" and its status as a "sacred cow" (in the Hindu sense) which is customary.
I've noticed at the Corpus Christi thread the programming of the Franck "Panis..." at offertory and elsewhere. It's not my place to call the question of wisdom of this decision as I presume my colleagues know better than I how to serve their folks' worship arts. This "conventional Catholicism" repertoire would likely include GPdP's "Sicut...", Mozart's "Ave Verum..." , Tallis' "If ye love..." and you name it. None of those qualify as "The wind beneath my wings" as inherently harmful to the people's sensibilities while at licit worship. So, do carry on if we must. But I think we likely have exhausted the autopsy of this particular piece of music.

We are not to offer prayers or supplications to any other than God during the mass.

Ideo precor beatam Mariam semper Virginem,
omnes Angelos et Sanctos,
et vos, fratres,
orare pro me

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Is the Litany of Saints not a liturgical prayer?

Well, it is a special case. It starts and ends with petitions to God, which we can't say of the Ave Maria. It appears in the rites of sacraments other than the Eucharist. Are there any cases where it appears in Mass, apart from the ritual Masses?

The Easter Vigil contains the Litany of Saints, for one example. The fact that it begins and ends with petitions to God is wonderful, of course.

That reminds us of dulia, hyperdulia, and latria- all of which are found in various texts of the mass. See G's comment, too.

We praise God in His angels and in His saints. We ask them for prayers. I don't see the problem here.

With respect to an esteemed musician, the statement below is not accurate in that it dismisses authentic liturgical prayers. We would not want new church musicians seeing this, with little liturgical formation, to be misled.

We are not to offer prayers or supplications to any other than God during the mass.

That statement is untrue. In fact, several instances have been shown on this thread where liturgical prayers are offered to God via his angels and saints, and where angels and saints are addressed directly and given fitting veneration as faithful creatures of God. This is fitting and acceptable because of the Catholic dogma regarding dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.


The judgment involved in choosing an Ave Maria as an added musical prayer when it is not called for in any given specific liturgy is a separate question. I personally find Andrew's response to that question most helpful.

And, on the lighter side of things, the Diva viagra label is hilarious. Its been true in my experience. What does one give Aunt Tiddle, who sings reasonably well though not trained and not practiced? The Schubert Ave Maria, of course! Never mind the rhythm, correct articulation of ornaments, etc. Anyone can sing it... well, sort of. Has there been any other piece so horridly, so routinely butchered?

Not that you are part of the problem, Canadash- I'm not saying that at all.

Well, you didn't hear me MaryAnn... you may have thought so! :)

Well don't we just all wish we had the money to hire professionals. We would still have problems, just different problems. And, of course, the problem altos who want to sing "Ave" all think they are sopranos, which makes the multi-key book worth the money.