Everyone is chiming in with what their personal favorite hymns are, usually with a few Anglican tunes to sound knowledgeable,

Not to digress, Gavin, but was that judgment really necessary to advance your point?

I rarely disagree with you, G, but in this case I wonder why you think these two improvements to liturgical music can't be worked on simultaneously.

Although I respect him, I very often disagree with Charles. Potatoe potahtoe. But that's another kettle of salmon.

You lost me, Kathy. I can't connect the dots of relevance to the OP.

Uncle, UNCLE! Help me ObiWan Kathy!

I'm trying to be nice to you right now, actually.

And I know what a difficult thing that is to do, I have earned your just ire over many years, but I, too, respect and love you, K. Last clause not in purple.

I don't disagree with you, Kathy. Simultaneously, but nonetheless prioritized.
I was just being snarky saying that this was a "useless" discussion to yank Gavin's chain because I took the OP the same way Charles did.
Frankly, I think the real use of the other thread, besides being kind of fun, was to demonstrate that this kind of limited, specific list is never going to fly, because of the particular character of the OHC&A Church as described by Joyce -- "Here comes everybody!"

I went to a lotta Church when I was a kid, (I collected hymnals!) and through school (not just dragged on Sunday, if you know what I mean,) and when I went on to conservatory, a lot of different churches, my parents were musical, their friends often musicians at other parishes where we would go for liturgical and devotional events, I sang and heard what I thought was a massive range of music -- but throughout my adult life I have been shocked at how often I come upon a hymn totally new to me, while I am assured "everybody knows this one!"

And with the demographics of this country, I don't know that a "core hymnody" of the English-language hymns most of us on this forum could nominate to such a list, would have much use or claim to "universality."

Are we taking note of the fact that Hispanic Catholics are already the majority of the under-30s in the American Church?

In my collection I have a couple editions of Cantate Domino, the hymnal of "The World's Christian Student Foundation," they have well over a hundred hymns, and there was apparently a change in editorial philosophy between the two, as to pleasing each national or denominational groups as opposed to establishing a core that everyone could use, that most people knew.
(Although there are some hymns in Korean, Norwegian, etc. the only languages all hymns are presented in are German, French and English.)

Looking at what they settled on, there is very little that decades later seems useful to me, (although to be fair, IIRC, the first few are GROSSER GOTT, LASST..., maybe FESTE BURG?)

Gary Penkala on CNP had a list of 100, don't remember the source of the list, but it didn't seem to have any traction.

Anyway, this, like the other thread strikes me as fun, interesting, but not useful on any but a very local, very personal, very parochial, (in both senses of the word,) level.

Wow, I took so long there's more conversation before I post! MUST learn not to ramble....

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Gavin,

Back in the late 1970s when working as a staff writer for GoodNews, a homiletic service edited by Fr. Joseph Nolan and at that time published by Franciscan Publications, I proposed exactly what you suggest (only I offered 35 core hymns if I remember correctly). It was all standard stuff: Praise to the Lord, All Creatures/Ye Watchers, Now Thank We All Our God, Let All Mortal Flesh, etc. Nolan pushed the idea though I’m doubtful whether the 5000 or so clergy subscribers took heed. (He had argued in the 1960s for American Catholics to adopt the 1940 Episcopal hymnal; we see how far that got.)

Obstacles to developing a core hymn repertoire are perhaps greater today, as G suggests, and I’m wondering whether there aren’t fundamental issues that need to be addressed first. (The omnipresence of the microphone for music purposes would be high on my list since, contrary to popular belief, it hinders congregational singing.) The basic idea though of an essential core hymnody is not without merit and I’m glad that you've renewed an old topic.

And of course, a very vocal contingent will be quck to remind us that the GR, the GM or the GS is DA BOOKS already, and SEP and all the rest be consigned to Gehenna.

Wow.

Context? Just that yes, the GR, GM and GS are THE books. And the rest are thrown to the devil? (TTTD)

francis, keep up with old/current events, please. For a contingent among us, those books suffice, PERIOD. Ergo, SEP/LCM/VIIH/PBC/PBH are irrelevant, hence to Gehenna, which was a smoldering garbage heap outside the walls of Jerusalem, literally. Tho' our Lord used the metaphor quite effectively, you've mistakenly appropriated my caricature far beyond what I amusingly intended.

Gavin,

Could you make your question more specific? By "core hymns" do you mean "core vernacular hymns", or "core Catholic hymns", or "core Ecumenical hymns"?

And I think we need to look to what kinds of hymns people need, seasonably and topically:
Advent: 3 hymns
(I think we can safely ignore Christmas and just assume everyone already knows all the hymns they need for that)
Lent: 4 hymns
Passiontide: 2 hymns
Easter: 4 hymns
Holy Spirit: 3 hymns
General "Praise" subject matter: 5 hymns
Eucharistic: 4 hymns
"Other", specific and topical: 5 hymns

I think this is pretty straight forward.
For Advent, what 3 hymns should every musician in every Catholic Church have available to them. These 3 hymns should, at a minimum be played during the season.
I would think one of them would be "Conditor Alme Siderum" another might be "Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming", Veni, Veni Emmanuel and "Alma Redemptoris Mater".

They should be the core. Others can be played but at minimum these should be part of the repertoire.

3 hymns over 4 Sundays? What is being envisaged here? One hymn per Mass? When? Or 3 hymns, unvarying? I suppose there is something in mind.

Should these core hymns be universal so we could all sing them no matter where we live or what our regular spoken language is.
This would mean a smaller number of Hymns, and perhaps they should be sung in Latin to make them equally accessible... At our E.F. we have been asked to sing vernacular songs / hymns, my reply is, what is the vernacular in south London, Polish? Arabic? native English speakers are not the majority!

I see suggestions above including a few Latin Hymns / Antiphons, that would be appropriate.

Ok.

Here are "core" hymns:

Adoro Te, Devote,
Alma Redemptoris Mater
Anima Christi
Attende Domine
Ave Verum Corpus
Lauda Sion, Salvatorem
Magnificat Anima Mea Dominum
Non Nobis Domine
O Salutaris Hostia
Pange Lingua Gloriosi -- and therefore Tantum Ergo
Parce Domine
Rorate Caeli Desuper
Salve Regina
Stabat Mater Dolorosa
Te Deum Laudamus
Veni Creator Spiritus
Veni, Veni Emmanuel
Victimae Paschali Laudes


Among "vernacular" hymns:

Faith of our Fathers
Lead Kindly Light
The Strife is O'er, the Battle Done



And, just for good measure, the text of this recently discovered hymn needs the consideration of the forum:

"A Crooked Bowtie round his neck
And youth beyond his years?
Anonymous? but, what the heck
Ben Yanke gets three cheers!"

hymnody is not NEEDED for the liturgy

Nor, if one is being technical, are proper antiphons, the Sanctus, the sign of the cross, the Gloria, standing for the proclamation of the Gospel, altar servers (of either gender), and a host of other elements of rite.

Fr Krisman,

I had just written Te Deum, and, being inspired by Shakespeare, I logically followed it with Non Nobis. After I had completed the list, I alphabetized it.

That said, I take your point: let's include more psalms, sung Recto Tono if necessary, so we can sing the Divine Office.

Francis,

Quite right, but do you realize that your opinion (i.e., what Catholics would have all taken for granted not so many years ago) is considered beyond the pale anymore? (I say this as one who generally agrees with most of what you post.)

Nor, if one is being technical, are proper antiphons, the Sanctus, the sign of the cross, the Gloria, standing for the proclamation of the Gospel, altar servers (of either gender), and a host of other elements of rite.

Some of the above mentioned are indespensible from the Mass, some are not. Hymns are despensible.

Not wishing to gainsay the proposition that Gavin has put forth with an undoubted spirit of helpfulness and sincerity, I wonder why we would think that a mere twenty-five or so hymns would be sufficient for a parish which has a continuously developing music program. I can use up twenty-five hymns in several months if I am studiously matching three or four of them to a given Sunday's lectionary. Yes, there may be several dozen hymns which a congregation should master in the first several years of its existence, but these will hardly suffice for an evolving repertory which needs, ultimately, to illustrate the lectionary for every Sunday and solemnity (and, I would insert here that every last one of our Catholic hymnals is woefully short on hymns for all the solemnities and days of obligation throughout the year). Even 'general praise' hymns such as Lobe den Herren, almachtigen can only be sung no more than three or four times a year (if that many) without being ruinously tedious. And, tunes? They begin to be vexingly tiring when shot-gun wedded to too many texts. This goes beyond the false propers versus hymns argument. Where propers can be the 'proper' choral music for the mass, they should by all means be used - exclusively, or together with hymns and anthems. Where propers are not at this time a realistic option, one's goal is to teach one's people sufficient hymnody to be 'proper' to every celebration. That means three or four 'proper' hymns per Sunday, some of which may or may not be repeated a few times a year.

So, I hope that Gavin's suggestion is meant as one for a beginning repertory for a new parish; not the evolving repertory of an established one. If hymns are going to be used (and they absolutely are not about to go away), then they need to be 'proper'. To think that a few dozen are sufficient for a mature congregation is tantamount to suggesting that we only need thirty or so selections from the propers to get us through a year. Not a serious goal. Unthinkable.

I think that we can descriptively say there are some hymns which "everyone knows". You can pull them out and everyone will sing them on a given Sunday in nearly every parish. "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" is one.

Others here have spoken prescriptively about a repertoire of hymns which OUGHT to be known by everyone. That is to say, I don't think that every congregation knows "Christus Vincit", but let's say that they all should.

Whatever way you look at it, this is a "core" hymnody, something in common among all parishes singing hymns. And yes, Jackson is right that this is ONLY a start - a parish repertoire should number in the hundreds, and should vary according to the sensibilities of each parish. But the core should be drawn from liberally, both to provide hospitality for visitors and to reinforce the congregation's voice.

Don't you think we should just provide our 25 - 30 hymns that we feel should be in a hymnal, everyone would provide their favorite suggestions

NO. This is exactly what I DON'T think we should do! We have enough threads for this. They always devolve into "this is my favorite hymn! It's the best!" Which is fun, but not productive. What I am calling us to do is examine how we think about hymns. What do we need in a repertoire? What sort of repertoire should we have in common? Not what are the hymns, but what kinds of hymns do we want, how many, etc.

I've seen hymns that had anywhere from 50 to 700 hymns in them. The real problem is that they are generally compiled to try and get the largest possible number of churches to use them, and so they try to cover all styles and tastes.

The biggest problem I have found with many hymnals is that they often printed as words only. There really should be a melody line published with them! Do not underestimate how much a congregation will learn intuitively if they have a melody line in front of them. For many people, this might be the only music education they ever get!

The other major problem is that the hymns are not sorted according to liturgical season/use. Sure, you can find them in the index, but chances are that on Trinity Sunday, you're going to sing the Trinity hymns and maybe a more general eucharistic hymn, so it would be much more convenient if all these hymns were just a page or two away from each other.

Adoremus Hymnal was not a bad attempt at a new traditional hymn book, but I felt that the hymn selection was a bit limited - probably because most of them were public domain hymns.

Sometimes there are certain benefits to using the projector for hymns - at least then you can pick and choose from any hymnal and even restore the traditional words to many modernised hymns.

Martin, frankly I thought Adoremus I hymn selection was dreadful.
Adam- everything's relative when it comes to media delivery. Out here we've exhaustively examined every possible method and combination (only one of four churches is video equipped, hardly used.) The paper solution would save us thousands per year from OCP subscription, but would severely encumber an already heavily tasked administrative staff.
So, as you know, we're headed your and Adam B.'s way ASAP for at least one resource.
But, in certain situations, the screen can be done artfully, if only by projecting the actual page of chant or hymn, not just text.
In my little twenty minute visit to the mega Assembly of God church yesterday (I stayed in their "narthex" which was also equipped with state of the art electronics) their use of video so works against there being an objective to worship, the projected words are hardly the problem. The narcissism is quite another issue....

I don't really have a problem with projection screens IN THEORY, but yes - you have to design your slides well, and figure out how to place your screens in such a way that they are as minimally tacky as possible.

Alas, I have only witnessed then done ONE SINGLE TIME, and I was the one who put together the projection slides.