The proposed closing of Holy Innocents in NYC
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,601
    Cardinal Castrillon's comment is not remotely dispositive, even in his capacity as head of the PCED. There were and are ways to turn it into something dispositive. Those ways, which are not mysterious or magical, have yet to be used and, at this juncture, the likelihood that they might be used is fast receding.
    Thanked by 2PaixGioiaAmor Gavin
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    If I remember right, SP and UE provide that the faithful can ask their pastor to offer Mass in the EF; if he cannot fulfill the request, the faithful can ask the bishop to make provision for it, and if the bishop is not able, the faithful may ask the Ecclesia Dei commission to offer its advice and suggest ways to meet the need.

    The aim of this is to help people meet their spiritual need. Anyone desiring to worship the Lord God in any form should keep that as the foremost goal. And it may require some generosity: some lay people who prefer the EF may need to go beyond their own parish to attend it, and some priests with no personal interest in the EF may be called upon to learn it for the sake of the faithful who desire it.

    Thanked by 2hilluminar JulieColl
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,601
    Btw, I should note that I long recommended, before the issuance of SP, that the Mass in the EF be regularly offered (on each Sunday) in at least one church in a deanery (vicariate forane), at least for a period of a few years to determine if there is interest sufficient to sustain it. Then again, I also think that we should dispense with urban and suburban single-parish rectories and have all the priests of a deanery live together in a house of religion, as it were, for the deanery.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar JulieColl
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 306
    The President of my University wants a particular program of seminars for first year students, so we are in the process of implementing one. Unfortunately, while he is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on in the University, he knows far less than I do about how a department runs, how teaching schedules get made up, what faculty are and are not willing to commit themselves to, etc. He can desire whatever he wants, but that does not mean that he knows whether his desire is realistically able to be implemented.

    Pope Benedict is a smart man and a very capable theologian, but why would I presume that, even if he does desire the EF to be celebrated in every parish, this is a good, or even feasible, idea? Not every desire of a Pope is magisterial teaching (particularly when we know about it only through hearsay).
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • TCJ
    Posts: 828
    Ahem.

    In the case of a church with multiple Masses in multiple languages, having an EF instead of one of those will actually serve people who speak both languages. Speaking of unity, it's interesting that in churches that have the EF, I've seen a mix of ethnicity, but in churches that have multiple vernacular language liturgies, it's a complete split.
  • Jani
    Posts: 432
    What TCJ said.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,678
    A Latin OF would accomplish the same goal
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Matthew, do you know Fr. Clements?
    He celebrated a late night Easter OF in Latin at the Newman center in... 2011? The ordinary was all in Latin, Gregorian propers alongside vernacular hymns, all the priest's prayers in Latin, all attention to postures, lots of incense. As far as my knowledge at the time and my memory of that liturgy, it was AS THE COUNCIL ENVISIONED THE MASS.

    Imagine the world of Catholicism today if that wasn't news, it was just your average suburban parish experience.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    A Latin OF Mass would certainly help. I don't know that it would be able to replace the EF in the affections of people attached to that form, however a Latin OF would certainly bring the two forms closer together.
    Thanked by 2Jani StimsonInRehab
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,428
    "An average Christian without specialist liturgical formation would find it difficult to distinguish between a Mass sung in Latin according to the old Missal and a sung Latin Mass according to the new Missal. However, the difference between a liturgy celebrated faithfully according to the Missal of Paul VI and the reality of a vernacular liturgy celebrated with all the freedom and creativity that are possible - that difference can be enormous."
    -Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, 24 October 1998
    http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1999/feb1999p10_382.html
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka Gavin
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    It's my long-held conviction that if the EF Latin Mass is instituted in a parish setting, it ought to be celebrated according to the directives of De Musica Sacra, and the people taught to say and sing in Latin those parts of the Mass that pertain to them.

    If the EF Latin Mass is celebrated according to the prescriptions of De Musica Sacra, and a vibrant participation of the faithful encouraged, very few would be able to tell the difference between the OF Latin Mass and an EF Latin Mass.

    Too often, I'm afraid, the EF Latin Mass is celebrated according to the limited preconciliar experience of those involved without any reference to the Church's documents and the often stated desires of the preconciliar Popes.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,678
    My comment was in response to TCJ, not in regard to the EF as a whole. I fully agree with the aims of SP and believe the EF should be readily available to the faithful (though not necessarily in every parish).
    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,090
    Julie, what you describe is what I have termed the error of "Nostalianism". Ignore Vatican II, Pius XII, Pius X, because it's not what I remember from when I was a kid in the '40s.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,160
    the error of "Nostalianism". Ignore Vatican II, Pius XII, Pius X, because it's not what I remember from when I was a kid in the '40s


    Please clarify.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Chrism
    Posts: 831
    Trading land for cash.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,921
    I think I know that JulieColl and Salieri mean. She wrote:

    Too often, I'm afraid, the EF Latin Mass is celebrated according to the limited preconciliar experience of those involved without any reference to the Church's documents and the often stated desires of the preconciliar Popes.


    Based on what I've heard, some parishes here in the States, in the 1950s and early '60s, didn't pay close attention to the liturgical documents coming from the Holy See. (Amazing, eh?)

    They maintained some old practices even after new directives appeared in the 1950s, such as De musica sacra (1958) or perhaps the Holy Week reform of 1955. Because of that lax observance, some people coming to the EF now are puzzled by certain details which actually are correct observance.

    One example I can recall offhand is the placement of the Communion antiphon. If I understand right, the older practice was to sing it once, when the people's Communion was completed, but the 1958 document directed that it be sung with verses, starting after the priest's reception of Holy Communion. One of my choir friends only knew the old practice, so he thought that the change was a case of mixing the old and new rites: not proper, in his view.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    That's about right, Chonak. It's been my experience over several decades with the TLM that there is not much awareness of the liturgical norms governing the use of the EF among TLM music people, the most recent and exhaustive of which is the 1958 Instruction on Sacred Music and Sacred Liturgy, De Musica Sacra.

    De Musica Sacra, in keeping with the repeated instructions of Popes Pius X, XI and XII, taught that the congregation be taught to sing and say in Latin those parts of the Mass that pertain to them. The popes used pretty tough language to get the point across. They did not want the people to be like this at the celebration of the preconciliar Latin Mass:

    “. . . detached and silent spectators”—-Pope Pius XI, Divini cultus

    “. . . .outsiders or mute onlookers”—-Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei

    “. . . strangers”—-Pope Pius XII, De musica sacra

    “. . . mute spectators”—-Pope Pius XII, De musica sacra

    “. . . dumb and idle spectators”—-Pope Pius XII, Musicae sacrae disciplina

    However, and I hate to say this so bluntly, at many TLM venues the above is what you'll find because there is, in many places, no effort or desire to include the PIP's in the liturgy.

    There are two familiar TLM models which each attract a certain population: 1) the circa 1950's model which is popular in rural areas: silent, passive congregation with a girls' choir singing Baby Jesus hymns two octaves above middle C, and 2) the Mass-as-concert model which is popular in urban areas: silent, aristocratic congregation with a professional all-male schola singing the chants and professional choir singing polyphonic motets and Masses embellished with grand organ processionals.

    Again, and I hate to be blunt, but it's little wonder neither of these models is very popular in your average OF parishes. If, instead there was more of an effort to implement the degrees of participation mandated in De Musica Sacra, perhaps there wouldn't be so much animus among the people and clergy to the Latin Mass, and I know there is animus because I have been on the receiving end of it many times.

    I'm not trying to knock these paradigms; they may have a real value somewhere, esp. the second paradigm which I think perhaps should be available in at least one parish in every diocese because it is so beautiful.

    However, for your average parish the Latin Mass might have far more appeal if the liturgy was comparable to many of the OF Mass programs I see described on this forum all the time and which I like to call the "populist" model: vernacular standard congregational hymns at entrance and recessional, Gregorian chant masses from the Kyriale that the people are encouraged to sing, GR propers by a mixed schola (men and women) and a polyphonic motet or two.

    This model of the Latin Mass is instantly accessible to most OF Catholics, and I see that all the time at our Missa Cantata. Newcomers arrive and take our handout and have no problem following.

    Sorry for the long lecture, but if the EF Latin Mass is to survive, I'm absolutely convinced that the "populist" paradigm is the missing link, the middle way to bridge the two forms of the Roman rite; the first two models are just too far removed from the typical Catholic's experience.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,160
    Don't know what your experience (or success) was with EF congregations, folks, but since I've known a couple of them, here's a clue: if they don't WANT to sing, they WILL NOT sing. They'll even tell the DoM that he's full of feathers when they are advised of the written regs from Rome. And it's a firing offense to skip "Bring Flowers of the Rarest" during May.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,678
    My former EF Parish (www.windsorlatinmass.org) certainly sings with gusto!

    Mass VIII? Roof blown off!
    Credo III? You can hear it down the road!
    Deo Gartias at the end of Mass? They know 'em all!

    They'll also sing vernacular hymns, the dialogue responses, and Masses XVII, XVIII, XI, IX, and I to some degree.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,428
    :: JulieColl's Latin Mass ::

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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thank you so much, Adam, and I'd love to visit your liturgy and many others who've listed their programs here.

    When we first started doing the music at our chapel, our pastor gave us a video of a High Mass at an Anglican-use parish in Texas, and we used that for inspiration as well as watching many videos of French traditional Catholics celebrating the Sung Mass. Also, for years we've studied the Sunday music programs at the Windsor Latin Mass website and used their suggestions countless times.

    Actually, being on this forum for a few years now has been a very important influence. I see all the time many EF and OF musicians who share basically the same liturgical/musical philosophy and whose music programs are very similar, and I think it's a very good practice for EF musicians to stay in the loop, so to speak, and try to stay within the general ballpark of musical practice here on the forum.

    That is the tremendous value of this forum: to demonstrate that, as Pope Benedict said in SP, there
    There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture.


    I think it's our duty as church musicians to keep seeking ways in the practical order to reconcile the two forms of the Roman rite and foster the "mutual enrichment" which Pope Benedict called for in SP. A few years ago it was considered taboo to mention the concept of "mutual enrichment" between the two forms, but maybe it's time to bring that idea more into the open. It's like the old saying, if you don't hang together, you're going to hang separately, and it's true.

    At the end of SP which I was just re-reading, Pope Benedict asked us all to widen our hearts (2 Cor 6:11-13) and this especially gave me pause on this feast of Pentecost:

    Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.
  • G
    Posts: 1,391
    To get back to parish closings and demographics...
    And that million dollars that could have [gone] to the diocese...[will allow] the 60 people who attend each week [to] attend in the building of their choosing - as though that is what church is about.
    I can't help but think the loosy-goosiness of current liturgical practice, with its over-arching philosophy of "well, that's the way we do it HERE, at St MakingItUpAsWeGoAlong encourages the outlook of those 60 old people.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I can't help but think the loosy-goosiness of current liturgical practice, with its over-arching philosophy of "well, that's the way we do it HERE, at St MakingItUpAsWeGoAlong encourages the outlook of those 60 old people.


    Yes. I will say, that between our parish and the one I mentioned, I don't think there's a ton of ideological difference; They aren't waving banners and dancing around or anything like that. They basically have an organist and sing four traditional hymns at mass.

    But what you say is still true; They sing at least one hymn in POLISH each week; we don't. We sing in LATIN. They don't sing in Latin. We do "traditional music," but it's not the SAME TITLES of "traditional music" that they do. On and on.

    And you're right. It's silliness either way.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 929
    A very good open letter to Cdl. Dolan on the proposed closing of Holy Innocents.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,067
    That seems like a very good, balanced letter. Hope this all works out.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,601
    *That* is an *excellent* model of a good letter.
    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    It's fascinating to have more pieces of the background behind Fr. Wylie's epic sermon, and that it was apparently an extemporaneous response to parishioners upset by the news of the potential closure.

    I've wondered how the copy of his sermon came to light since I've seen it online with detailed page citations of Dom Gueranger's book and chapter and verse from Scripture so was wondering if it was a transcript or an actual copy from Fr. Wylie (which didn't make sense). Apparently it is a transcript from a recording a parishioner made at the time and reproduced online.

    This is just personal opinion, of course, but I remain deeply impressed with Fr. Wylie's compassion and courage, his ability to size up the situation with such accuracy, and his eloquence and hope we will be hearing from him again someday in happier circumstances.